LeBron James: Getting Better
Here at Respect Kobe, we pride ourselves on being fair and rational in our evaluation of players — including our beloved Kobe Bryant, as well as any challengers to his title of “best basketball player alive.” Yes, we do happen to think that Kobe Bryant is decidedly better than LeBron James. But we also think that any Kobe fans who deny that James is closing gap are in denial, while those who say, “LeBron sucks!” are just plain stupid. Yeah, I said it. A few moments ago, I posted an article in which I examined, statistically, the oft-heard assertion that LeBron James’ mid-range jumper has significantly improved. In looking at the numbers, I found that LeBron’s mid-range numbers have actually worsened slightly — and, in fact, that is is Kobe who has improved significantly in this area, this year. If you haven’t yet, click here to read that article, as it gives some good context for this article. UPDATE: I’ve followed this article up with another one, also inspired by the same TrueHoop bullet, which looks at which of these two players is “the most clutch.” Click here to find out if the numbers tell the whole story. Bob, a TrueHoop reader and the latest fan to claim that LeBron’s mid-range jumper has improved, made a few other assertions regarding supposed improvements that James has made this year. As you will see, I agree with him on several points. Let’s look at the areas he mentions, one by one. Defense: Check! Bob suggests that LeBron has improved significantly on the defensive end of the court this year, and he is correct. I would actually suggest that this improvement was happening last year, as well. If you’ve read any of my previous articles, you may be aware that last year, I considered the gap between Kobe’s and LeBron’s defensive abilities to be quite large. As things stand right now, James has narrowed that gap significantly. Nonetheless, it is also worth pointing out that Bryant’s All-NBA level defense is showing up much more frequently this year than it has in the recent past, largely due to his teammates’ impressive ability to pick up the slack on the offensive end. Frankly, I’d be ecstatic to have either Kobe Bryant or LeBron James guarding the other team’s best perimeter player with the game on the line. I’d still take Bryant over James, but only by a hair. Free Throw Shooting: Check! Bob also correctly points out that James is shooting better from the free throw line this season than ever before in his career. Prior to this season, his career average from the charity stripe was .728. This season, his free throw average is up to .787, representing an improvement of nearly 5%. If he improves by the same amount over the course of the season and during the off-season, he should be close to Kobe Bryant’s .856 free throw percentage. While such marked improvement in two straight years is not necessarily likely, for a player as skilled and driven as James, it is more than possible. Nonetheless, Bryant still maintains a significant edge over James in free throw shooting, even with LeBron’s significant improvement. If he keeps this up, though, the gap is clearly closing, and LeBron’s critics will have one less thing to point to. Three-Point Shooting: Yes and No One of the more puzzling claims Bob makes about LeBron James’ improvement is that he is taking fewer three-pointers. While this is true — James is averaging almost one fewer three-point attempt per game, representing a 19% decrease in three-pointers taken — I’m not sure I see the relevance to the current conversation (in which Bob appeared to be listing several areas in which LeBron was no longer inferior to Bryant). It is true that taking fewer 3-pointers, in LeBron’s case, is a good decision, and therefore an improvement of sorts. However, the improvement is not one of ability or skill, which is what Bob seems to be implying — at least, that was the impression I got. Instead, it is an improvement in judgment. And it is a good thing, because someone shooting as poorly as LeBron James is from beyond the arc should not be taking many threes. Except in international play, James has never been a stellar three-point shooter — last year, he shot a paltry .315 from downtown (compare that to Kobe’s .361 from long distance). This year, however, his three-point shooting is even worse, clocking in at a miserable .271 so far. Given his poor shooting this year, it is certainly a good thing that LeBron is shooting fewer threes. But while this is an improvement in judgment, it certainly does not indicate that he has actually improved as a shooter, at all. Furthermore, it is worth pointing out that Kobe Bryant has also struggled mightily from three-point range, so far this year. In fact, he is actually shooting slightly worse than LeBron — a dismal .260 from the field so far. Nonetheless, if LeBron can be credited for attempting only 3.9 three-point field goals per game, down from 4.8 last year, then Kobe should be given even greater credit for good judgment with regards to 3-point shooting. Last year, while hitting at a rate of .361, Bryant attempted 5.1 threes per game. This year, shooting only .260, Bryant has averaged only 2.9 three-point attempts per game — one less than LeBron, and 2.2 less than he did last year. That represents a 43% decrease in three-pointers taken, meaning that any credit given to James for reducing his three-point attempts by 19% must be given even moreso to Bryant for reducing his by 43%. I fully expect both James and Bryant to return to their previous form from three-point range, at which point I would expect that both will attempt the long ball a bit more frequently. Conclusion To conclude, Bob makes several good points regarding LeBron James’ recent and continued improvement. However, like many fans of LeBron, he would do well to double check his facts, to ensure that he is giving LeBron the credit he is due, and no more than that. Knowing that there are many strong feelings on both sides of this debate — which essentially boils down to, “Who is the best player in the world?” — here is what I ask of both sides. Any Lakers fans with any value for intellectual honesty must cease the “LeBron is garbage” and “LeBrick is overhyped” and “LeBron sucks” comments, and recognize LeBron’s immense talent, unfathomable potential, and solid work ethic. You cannot reasonably expect respect for Kobe Bryant while disrespecting LeBron James. Likewise, I encourage all Lakers fans to give credit where it is due — and, like it or not, LeBron deserves a lot of credit for his defensive and, if it keeps up, foul shooting improvements, among others. Likewise, I ask fans of LeBron to be realistic. We recognize that LeBron has the potential to one day be the greatest, most skilled basketball player ever to have played. But you must also recognize that that day has not yet come, and there is still much in his game that can — and likely will — see significant improvement. Don’t disrespect LeBron by giving him credit for things he has not yet done. Remember also that mere improvement on LeBron’s part, in any given area, does not automatically mean that he has surpassed other players, such as Kobe Bryant, in that area. His free throw shooting this year is a great example — though he has shown significant improvement so far, he still needs to more than double that improvement to reach Kobe’s level in that area. As for who is the better player: Well, if the two meet in the Finals, each with a strong team surrounding him, then perhaps we will find out. As fans, we should be so lucky. |
Filed Under 3-Point Shooting, Defense, Free Throw Shooting, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Mid-Range Jumpshot, Statistics, poor shooting |
All in favor of a coup to overthrow John Hollinger on ESPN and replace him with Josh Tucker say “I.”
I.
BTW, good to hear from you, Josh. Maybe we should start a new blog called “Respect Josh Tucker” and compare/contrast you to John Hollinger as you have done with Kobe and Lebron.
Awesome post, Josh! It’s good to read your posts again. Hope everythings good on your end.
Your article seems relatively fair for a Kobe supporter, however I notice you don’t mention any of the areas where LeBron is clearly superior like, rebounding, blocked shots, assists, scoring, passing, etc. While Kobe supporters like to say Kobe is better in the clutch the facts just don’t support that claim, in fact the facts prove just the opposite. LeBron has led the league in forth quarter and overtime scoring for the last couple of years (check the facts). Not as clearly are subjective things like leadership and teamwork but come on lets be real, we both know LeBron is much better in those areas.
Even only using Kobe’s strong points (outside shooting and foul shots) there is just no way Kobe is better all around player than LeBron! I know it is hard excepting change but LeBron has passed Kobe and it is not really that close!
Interesting website here. Fairly worded and nicely researched. However, the way that this information is provided is in Kobe’s favor. Yes, Kobe’s midrange jumpshot is better (although the data doesn’t support it, I do think after seeing his games this year, that LeBron’s is improving). He is also a better 3 point shooter and a better free throw shooter. I think that LeBron will probably narrow those gaps, but Kobe is a better shooter, no denying that.
Kobe is also a better on the ball defender. He does a better job contesting and staying in front of his man, although once again I do think LeBron is improving.
However, those are the only two areas in which he is better. LeBron is a better help defender as can be seen by a lot of his steals in the passing lanes and his weakside blocks (Kobe is still a better defender overall though, don’t get me wrong). LeBron is a better rebounder offensively and defensively, and he is a better passer.
Here’s the kicker with me in terms of the LeBron/Kobe debate. Whether or not Kobe is a better shooter is really a moot point because LeBron shoots better than him from the field despite his poor 3 point shooting and his mediocre midrange shooting. This year, along with last and their entire careers, LeBron has shot a better percentage from the field. You can say things like well he gets more easy buckets or doesn’t take as difficult shots but who cares? That’s like penalizing Shaq in his prime for being able to get a ton of dunks and shoot 60% from the floor. The fact of the matter is that LeBron and Kobe are both perimeter players, but LeBron is a better passer, and a more efficient scorer (not jumpshooter because at the end of the day, putting the ball in the basket is all that matters) thus making him the better offensive player. Would love to see your response. Keep up the good work.
[...] Lebron James as good or better than Kobe Bryant? The guys at “Kobe Bryant. Respect.” don’t think so, but they lay out their case pretty [...]
This is a great article (and i am a cavs fan), and i do agree that kobe is the best player in the world, and lebron is at a close second, and if there is a last second shot, i most def want kobe…The thing i would say lebron is #1 at though is dominace, as i feel he is the most dominant player in the world (similar to shaq in his younger days)
Lebron is a freak of nature being 6′9 250 with something around 5% or less body fat and has legitimate 4.3 speed (was able to catch TJ Ford from behind the other night and block his shot, and TJ ford is one of the fastest players in the NBA) and over a 40″ vertical which is simply unheard of…I always say lebron is a combo of Chris Paul and Amare Stoudemire (vision,passing ability and will to get to the basket like paul) and the size (though actually a little bigger body mass wise) and able to finish like amare
Like Shaq said when they were going for their 2nd title, “Kobe is the best player in the world, and i’m the most dominant”…Now lebron has substituted shaq in that regard
Me personally, i want the most dominant (wouldn’t mind having kobe either though)
Last year, LeBron played on one of the slowest paced teams, with the best team rebounding, and the worst shooting percents in the league.
He’d average close to a triple double on a team like the Raptors.
@LandofCleve,
I can’t help but think that perhaps a reread of this entire article might be helpful. Most of what you mention is directly addressed in the article.
The areas in which LeBron “is clearly superior” are already taken as understood. Henry Abbott, whom I quoted and to whom I am responding, mentioned them in his original TrueHoop bullet. Additionally, they are evident in 82games.com’s statistics, which I discuss quite a bit.
But the whole premise of this article is that there is something beyond the numbers — therefore, repeating the numbers to me (numbers I had already taken into account and mentioned) doesn’t actually further this discussion. It just puts it on repeat.
My article shows why the numbers don’t tell the whole story. It shows that in the biggest game of LeBron’s life, with the game on the line, all his regular season numbers meant very little. It was Kobe who took over.
You can take the guy with numbers if you want. I’m going to take the guy who is actually most likely to get the job done. As this example shows, that guy is still Kobe.
Furthermore, your subjective assertions regarding leadership and teamwork are not at all automatics. In fact, I’d say that those are areas in which Kobe has caught up to LeBron.
I’d also advise you to reconsider statements like, “LeBron has passed Kobe and it’s not really that close!” It damages your credibility, because any reasonable person knows that even if it were true that LeBron has passed Kobe, it certainly is close — just like it’s true that though Kobe is still ahead of LeBron, LeBron actually is close.
@lilballer2shakeu,
I think you may want to take a second look at the Lakers’ defense this year. Kobe tends to spend a good amount of time playing that sort of “rover” on defense (much like he did against Boston, specifically because Rondo was considered an offensive liability). And he is doing it exceptionally well. I have a hard time seeing how you can see that and then suggest LeBron is a better help defender. Also, I would caution against citing steals and blocks as help defense stats. In fact, I would caution against using those two stats to support defensive prowess, at all. Chris Paul leads the league in steals, but has been shown to be a serious defensive liability for his team. (Thankfully, his offensive brilliance tends to outweigh this fact.)
We’ve also already had the discussion on some of the things you reference here. Click here for more on rebounding statistics in context. Basically, LeBron is a fantastic rebounder, but the fact is that Kobe leads his position in rebounding, as well. As a forward, it is LeBron’s job to rebound. As a guard, especially in an offense that likes to get out on the break, it is Kobe’s job to let his two seven-footers and one 6′10″ rebounding machine clean up the boards, and leak out for the early offense.
That article I linked to also shows why LeBron’s typically higher field goal percentage means nothing. True Shooting Percentage is what actually measures offensive efficiency — i.e., a player’s ability to get the ball through the hoop (or even more accurately, to score points) — not FG%. And Kobe averages a higher TS% than LeBron.
Here’s why the shooting matters. Yes, basketball is about putting the ball in the hoop. Yes, LeBron is as good or better at that than anyone else — during the regular season. That is because almost nobody can keep him away from the rim. His ability to get to the hoop is simply unparalleled. Hell, that’s one skill that Kobe doesn’t even come close in, and neither does anyone else. LeBron owns that. And almost nobody can stop it. Keyword: “almost”. But then he gets to the Finals, and San Antonio builds a moat around the paint. LeBron looks horrible, Spurs sweep the Cavs. The next year, he gets to the Conference Finals, and the Celtics determine to keep LeBron away from the basket. That’s Priority #1, and while they were still struggling in many ways at that time, the Celtics managed that much. Again, LeBron looked terrible, and the Cavs couldn’t pull it off against what really was a very vulnerable Celtics team (at the time — they were still figuring it out).
You see, LeBron dominates during the regular season because virtually no team is good enough to keep him out of the paint. But as hard as that is, it’s not impossible, and there are those rare teams that can do it. And when they do that, he’s not left with much else. Yeah, it’s about putting the ball through the hoop. And in the Playoffs, when teams take away the paint, he hasn’t been able to do that.
@Isaiah,
Thanks, I appreciate that very much from a Cavs fan. It’s always nice to be able to get along even when we’re from different camps.
Regarding “best” vs. “most dominant” — have you read me saying the same thing? Because that’s exactly how I put it.
Greater refers to accomplishments and legacy.
Better refers to skill and ability.
More Dominant refers to individual performance.
Currently, Michael Jordan is the greatest, Kobe is the best, and LeBron is the most dominant.
Point of clarification: 40″ vertical is not unheard of. I played volleyball in high school (don’t laugh, please — it’s an awesome sport), and I remember reading an article that stated that the entire Cuban national team — the entire team — had verticals over 40″. I’m sure that’s not your point; you were just pointing out that he jumps really high, which is true (his in-game “almost” free throw line dunk didn’t even look like he was trying). Just an interesting bit of trivia.
I’d take better over more dominant, and to understand why, read what I wrote to lilballer2shakeu. LeBron’s dominance is based on his ability to get to the rim. Boston and San Antonio have shown that, though it’s ridiculously difficult, it is possible to take that away. And without fail, when that has been taken away, he has been taken out of the game. The fact that Kobe is “better” is partly referring to the fact that he has a more complete and well-rounded skill set. About the only thing he doesn’t absolutely excel at is catch-and-shoot three-point shooting (understandable because he’s usually the one creating, not the one spotting up). That well-rounded skill set means that when you take away one element of his game, he’s got several others to turn to.
@Anonymous,
Typically, you expect individual numbers to go down — as Kobe’s have — when the player goes from playing on a team of scrubs to playing on a better team.
This year, the Cavs are either the first or second best team in the league, depending on who you ask. Third at the worst. And LeBron is not averaging a triple double. In fact, his numbers are down slightly.
great article…among the best i ve read about the hole kobe-lebron discussion. i agree with nearly everything but as some others have said i think you dont include the points which speak for lebron (rebound, court vision, power etc) if you want to discuss who is the better player…anyway maybe you just wanted to answer “bobs” post. but again great to read
@chap,
Thanks for your comments.
I’d encourage you to browse through past articles, where many of the things you mention actually are addressed.
That’s one of the reasons I started this site, actually. The Kobe Debate is so extensive and involves so many different elements, comparisons, etc., that it is impossible to address the whole thing in one sitting. Therefore, when discussing on random message boards and comment threads across the internets, we end up just repeating ourselves ad nauseum, and the discussion never actually progresses.
With this site, we can address certain issues, then move forward to address others. If people show up late to the discussion, we can point them to where the issues they bring up may already have been addressed.
In that context, you are correct that I was taking on specific issues, since I have dealt with some of the others in the past. If you’re like to get caught up on those, here is a good place to start. As always, if the article doesn’t completely answer your questions, I advise reading the comments, where the discussion often continues.
I agree with many of your points but if you consider that Kobe is a veteran and Lebron has been in the leage for less than half the time you realize some things. If you look at Kobe’s numbers from when he was 23 and Lebrons numbers at the same age then if gives you a new point of view. I agree that Kobe is an amazing ball player but hopefully we will see the cavs vs the lakers in the finals this year.
LeBron has a higher true shooting percentage…
I do agree about steals and blocks though, they can be stats that do not necessarily mean a good defender (ex. Allen Iverson and as you pointed out Chris Paul). I haven’t seen enough of Kobe to make a valid argument, so I’ll take your word for it although lately the Lakers defense hasn’t seemed up to snuff.
I really don’t think that the Celtics argument is a very fair one however. The Cavs outscored the Celtics for the whole series, and while LeBron didn’t play well early on, I think his impact was still great, especially in the later games of the series (and game 7, which doesn’t agree with your clutch argument). After all, they took the Celtics to 7 games and as I mentioned, outscored them in the series. It isn’t exactly like Kobe shot the lights out against the Celtics either, although he did shoot better (although still poor for Kobe). It’s not really a fair argument to say that the Celtics defense was THAT much better against Kobe than against LeBron and that they really improved that much. The fact of the matter is that they spanked the Lakers, and played the Cavs close.
Would love to hear your response. I’m also not trying to sound offensive or anything. I’m glad I found a Kobe fan who will give me a decent argument and not just get mad.
@Michael Smith,
Not sure what you’re implying. You say, “if you consider that Kobe is a veteran and Lebron has been in the league for half the time you realize some things.” What are those things?
I’m assuming you’re meaning James is better than Bryant was at his age. But don’t forget that at a similar time in his career, Kobe averaged 30 points, 7 rebounds, and 6 assists — numbers very similar to LeBron’s from last year (and virtually identical to his numbers this year). He also averaged 2.2 steals and shot .383 from three-point range. All this while playing with ball-demanding, high scoring, high rebounding Shaq, who was also touted as a great passer… oh, and he was playing with four other guys who averaged 3 assists per game or more.
That said, I have said many times that it is just crazy how good LeBron is at such a young age. He is sure to improve quite a lot, and that’s just crazy. I’ve also admitted that he may end up being better than Bryant by the time he retires. I just want it to be true before we start calling it… and it may very well be, sooner or later.
Man, I hope we get Lakers-Cavs in the Finals this year!
@lilballer2shakeu,
You’re right, LeBron is shooting a higher TS% than Kobe right now. Last year, when LeBron fans were so vocal in insisting that “LeBron shoots a higher field goal percentage and is more efficient than Kobe” the fact was that it simply wasn’t true. If I recall correctly, Kobe has typically shot a higher TS% than LeBron. But not this year, so kudos to LeBron. We’ll see if that holds up.
During the Finals, I frequently chatted with a well respected NBA blogger. After each of the first two games, I insisted that the Lakers weren’t in trouble, because Boston had been vulnerable all throughout the Playoffs, especially on the road. He insisted that this was a different Boston team than we had seen in the first three rounds. I called BS. When we won Game 3, I was sure I was right. We would win at least two, and very possibly three, at home. After all, Boston had been so very weak on the road throughout the Playoffs.
Then Game 4 happened. I don’t need to tell you how that went. That’s when I knew for a fact that things had changed. That Boston team was different, and a Lakers championship would be a near-miracle. We know the rest of the story.
I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE giving anything to Boston. Anything. But the fact is that they gelled and figured it out at just the right moment.
A couple weeks ago, that same blogger friend and I were talking, and this very question came up. He brought up the fact that the Cavs took the Celtics to 7. I said, “You were the one who told me all along that we were seeing a completely different Celtics team in the Finals than in the previous 3 rounds. And I hated it, but eventually realized you were right.” And he said, “Oh yeah, I did, didn’t I? And it was true.”
Now, they were good defensively, against the Cavs. I mean, that’s why LeBron needs to develop a post game and a mid-range jumper, because Boston’s defense kept him away from the basket. But the Celtics were better against the Lakers, and Kobe performed better. Although, the Cavs as a whole performed better than the Lakers.
Hey, I appreciate your perspective. I’ve never had so many respectful and thoughtful LeBron fans come to my site in a single week. Heck, in a single month! So I appreciate that a lot. And you know, it could be that it’s closer to the middle than either of us thinks.
did someone really just say lebron’s superior to kobe in rebounding, passing, blocking and scoring? lebron rebounds well, and just the right amount for his position. but kobe rebounds better than his position calls for. in that frame, i would say players like kobe, wade, and cp3 are better rebounders than lebron, even though their actual rebound NUMBERS are slightly lower than lebron’s. and regarding assists, the cavs’ offense runs entirely through lebron, so all his passes usually end up as shots, hence increasing the odds of earning an assist, whereas the triangle offense moves the ball around, so kobe’s passes will usually initiate another string of passes before the ideal shot is taken. so the fact that lebron averages not much more assists than kobe hardly makes him a “better passer”. i would say lebron’s a more willing passer, but certainly not a better passer than kobe. and do we really need to argue about scoring? lebron has only one method of scoring, while kobe has a myriad. take away lebron’s ability to get to to the hole, and you take away his entire game. and for people who think that lebron’s getting his points close to the basket makes him more efficient than kobe, think again. kobe’s TS% and eFG%, which are better metrics at guaging a player’s offensive efficiency compared to standard FG%, have consistently been better than or about the same as Lebron’s. This year’s different, but that’s this year…for the first 2 months.
and about leading the 4th quarter in stats last season? do you really think it’s because lebron was actually more clutch than kobe? hardly true. it’s because lebron played in many more tight games than kobe did. kobe spent half the season last year after pau arrived not needing to do much in the 4th quarter. just because kobe’s not averaging 30 points this year, are you going to conclude from it that kobe can’t? it’s all based on circumstance- this year, kobe doesn’t need to score, but he can still outscore anyone if he wanted to. kobe is still more clutch than lebron, and all the gm’s in the league would pick kobe to take over in the 4th quarter over lebron, as official nba polls have shown.
the only thing lebron is better than kobe at is his ability to get to the hole at will.
one more thing, the hawks took the celtics to 7 games in the playoffs. wow, that must mean they’re better than the lakers and kobe sucks compared to the players on the hawks. that’s the logic people are using when they bring up the fact that lebron’s better than kobe because the cavs took the celtics to 7 games and the lakers took them to only 6. the fact is that the celtics in the finals was nothing like the celtics in the previous 3 series. plus, the cavs have a much better defensive team than the lakers have. gasol, odom, vujacic, and radmanovic are as soft as jello.
let me clarify one thing: even though it might seem from my previous post that kobe is far more impactful than lebron, it is certainly not how i think of lebron. in my opinion, kobe is far more skilled than lebron, but lebron is very, very close to kobe in terms of impacting the game.
Anonymous -
You make some good points, but let me play Devil’s advocate for a minute here. First let me say that I do think LeBron has passed Kobe as best player in the league. Now, you didn’t make any points about Kobe being a better shot blocker. I think its pretty clear that LeBron is better in that category (he ends up blocking about a shot a game on the fastbreak trailing behind the offensive player). Steals we won’t argue since you made no point and I have no desire to right now.
As for assists and rebounds. You say while LeBron rebounds more, guys like Kobe and CP3 are better rebounders because they play guard and shouldn’t rebound like LeBron does. But how about we flip that and say that because LeBron is a forward, Kobe should get more assists as a guard. Same argument no? In terms of rebounds, LeBron’s team plays a much slower pace than Kobe’s, so therefore Kobe has more oppurtunities to get rebounds. The fact of the matter is that there are so many qualifiers you can use. Kobe’s offense does limit his assist numbers, much the same way CP3’s offense inflates his (if you haven’t seen the Hornets play, its literally CP3 dribbling until finding an opening and then scoring or passing). The only apples to apples comparison you can make is assists per posession, and rebounds per posession. LeBron’s rebound and assist numbers are higher than Kobe’s, and he plays at a slower pace, so therefore, he is a better rebounder and passer. You also mentioned LeBron is a more willing passer, and I think we would all agree being a willing passer is one of, if not the most important, facets of being a great passer.
Kobe may have a myriad of ways to score, but does that make him a better scorer than LeBron? No. LeBron has been a more effective scorer up until this point in the season. That’s like saying Shaq was bad on the Lakers because he could only get in deep, post up, and shoot close shots or dunks to score. He couldn’t hit jumpshots or freethrows either (LeBron has become a much better free throw shooter). LeBron can’t be looked at as worse than Kobe because he can and does get easier shots. Kobe is undoubtedly the more talent player. He has moves upon moves, he’s a better jump shooter, and better at staying in front of his man on defense. That doesn’t make him the better player though, just the more skilled.
you seem to be making one significant mistake: there’s a difference between saying player A is better than player B, and negating that player B is better than player A. let’s see if you can get the difference.
“you didn’t make any points about Kobe being a better shot blocker.”
because it was not worth mentioning. It was an obvious corollary to lebron’s rebounding “supremacy”. Lebron averages around a half more blocks, yet he’s almost 4 inches taller, almost 40 pounds bulkier and plays weak side defense. that doesn’t imply he’s a better shot blocker than kobe.
“Steals we won’t argue since you made no point and I have no desire to right now.”
do we really need to discuss steals? both are great stealers. is Lebron a better defender? hardly. steals don’t correlate with defensive prowess.
“But how about we flip that and say that because LeBron is a forward, Kobe should get more assists as a guard.”
so close yet so far: kobe is not just a guard- he’s a shooting guard. point guards are supposed to accumulate assists whereas shooting guards are not, which is why although cp3 might have the most assists, i would put lebron on the same level as him. and which is why kobe and wade, though shooting guards, are also on par with lebron, hence cp3 (of course not entirely, but you get my point). there’s much less of a distinction between low post players when it comes to rebounds than it does when you need to differentiate between a shooting guard and a point guard with respect to assists. hence, given that lebron doesn’t average a significant amount more than kobe, lebron is not a better rebounder than kobe. note i’m not asserting that kobe is a better rebounder.
anyway, let’s pretend and take your claim to be true- yes, kobe should be averaging more assists since he’s a guard. even in this case, we find from the offensive schemes each team uses that lebron’s assists are inflated, like cp3’s, and kobe’s is deflated. given that lebron doesn’t average much more than kobe, lebron is not a superior “assister”.
“the only apples to apples comparison you can make is assists per posession, and rebounds per posession.”
false. this does not take into account how the team operates, hence it is not “apples to apples” as you believe. like i said before, when lebron passes, it usually ends up as a shot taken, whereas when kobe passes, it usually ends up as another pass. that’s the difference between a lebron-centric offense and the triangle offense. so even though lebron plays in a slower paced offense, the team runs entirely through him, whereas although the lakers play slightly faster, the possessions are uniformly and widely distributed.
so you see, even when we do take in more factors like you wanted to, it generally levels out to being that lebron is not better than kobe in those areas. this is different from saying the lebron is worse than kobe in those areas.
“You also mentioned LeBron is a more willing passer, and I think we would all agree being a willing passer is one of, if not the most important, facets of being a great passer.”
that’s circular reasoning. if you’re a great passer, of course you’re willing. but being willing is not sufficient for being a great passer. of course, i’m not arguing lebron’s not a great passer. my point was he is not a better passer than kobe.
“Kobe may have a myriad of ways to score, but does that make him a better scorer than LeBron? No. LeBron has been a more effective scorer up until this point in the season. That’s like saying Shaq was bad on the Lakers because he could only get in deep, post up, and shoot close shots or dunks to score. He couldn’t hit jumpshots or freethrows either (LeBron has become a much better free throw shooter).”
a completely irrelevant argument because i never said lebron was not a good scorer. i said he was not a better scorer than kobe (getting the theme here?). it is simply not true that lebron has been more effective than kobe (except this season, which i noted), which i explicitly illustrated with eFG% and TS%. however, lebron only being able to score from close (like shaq) makes him a less talented scorer than kobe, like you stated. they are, however, both equally effective scorers.
“that doesn’t make him the better player though, just the more skilled.”
this is a matter of semantics, and differing assumptions will just make an argument go in circles. so just to make things simple and to clarify, let’s take that there are two distinctions: skill being one’s various abilities to perform and impact as one’s ability to affect a game. with this, we can agree that kobe is much more skilled than lebron, but lebron and kobe are equally impactful.
my argument was to show that lebron is NOT better than kobe in the various skills mentioned above, which doesn’t preclude the fact that lebron and kobe are equally impactful in those aspects. because of this, lebron is still not the best player in the league.
typo: at the end of the 7th paragraph i meant to say lebron is not a better assister then kobe.
First and foremost, let me say I understand the difference between negating that one player is better, and saying that one player is better, so please don’t try to patronize me with comments like, “let’s see if you can get the difference.” Just for the record, I am not trying to talk down to you, just put my opinion out there with facts.
Firstly, the Lakers average about 6 more possessions a game than the Cavs and are the third fastest paced team in the league. The Cavaliers are the 7th slowest. 6 more possessions might not seem like much, but the difference between the Lakers and the Knicks is only 1.8, and it seems like the Knicks play MUCH faster than the Lakers, at least to me.
Secondly, agree on the steals. Both do a great job of getting in the passing lane and steals are not a measure of a player’s defensive ability by themselves.
So let me get this straight so I am not misreading. You’re saying that the heirarchy of assist numbers should go like this: Point guard, shooting guard, then small forward, but you are also saying the difference between shooting guard and small forward is less than point guard to shooting guard? I can buy that and would generally believe it, although I am not sure where that comes from other than watching. There’s no statistic in that that I am aware of, and without statistics biases start to show. But let’s continue. With a higher pace, and being a shooting guard, Bryant should average more assists than LeBron. I realize that the triangle does not give Kobe as many chances are the Cavaliers offense, but with such a large distinction of pace and Kobe being a guard, he should average more, and if not more, at the least the same. As it is now LeBron averages a bit more than 1.5 times as many assists a game as Kobe.
As for the circular reasoning, I never said that made him the better passer than Kobe. The fact that he gets more assists on less posessions makes him better coupled with his willingness to pass more. Even if they are equally talented passers, if LeBron is more willing, he’s a better passer.
My point is this about the scoring. They aren’t equally effective. LeBron is more effective and more efficient as of now. If the playoffs come, and defenses clog the lane and he misses jumpers while Kobe makes them, then Kobe is the more efficient scorer. But as of now, LeBron is the more effective scorer.
Agreed about the skilled definition, however the problem with that definition is that athletic ability can be introduced, and then its difficult for me to agree that Kobe has more skill. If we were to say skill are the abilities of a player, not taking into account his athleticism, then Kobe is indeed more skilled. I think that is a more fitting definition for our conversation.
Curious about one thing though. You say, “lebron has only one method of scoring, while kobe has a myriad. take away lebron’s ability to get to to the hole, and you take away his entire game.” If not saying that Kobe is a better scorer here, then what are you saying? I realize you never said those specific words, but it sounds like that is what you are inferring, unless you are just making a random statement? Kobe is more versatile on offense? Just curious about that, I read it wrong initially.
Excited for the response.
One more point I didn’t bring up and just remembered. Assist to turnover. LeBron’s is much higher than Kobe’s and for an offense so centered around LeBron, his should be higher than Kobe’s right? Let me know which reason allows Kobe to rank significantly lower in that category.
“so please don’t try to patronize me with comments like, “let’s see if you can get the difference.””
i wasn’t intending to be patronizing. it was my segue into the rest of my post, but after reading it again i can see how it would come off as condescending, so i apologize. just know that wasn’t my intention. the internet is a bad medium for getting tone across.
“So let me get this straight so I am not misreading. You’re saying that the heirarchy of assist numbers should go like this: Point guard, shooting guard, then small forward, but you are also saying the difference between shooting guard and small forward is less than point guard to shooting guard? I can buy that and would generally believe it, although I am not sure where that comes from other than watching. There’s no statistic in that that I am aware of, and without statistics biases start to show.”
that would generally be correct. it’s simply a consequence of the definition of a player’s position and is generally true if you watch players like you said, although i do realize there are deviations from it since top players are usually a hybrid. you can’t conclude this “rule” from statistics because it is the statistics that actually follow from the player’s role. it’s simply the nature of the positions. anyway, both you and i seem to agree on this, so i won’t continue.
“Firstly, the Lakers average about 6 more possessions a game than the Cavs and are the third fastest paced team in the league. The Cavaliers are the 7th slowest. 6 more possessions might not seem like much, but the difference between the Lakers and the Knicks is only 1.8, and it seems like the Knicks play MUCH faster than the Lakers, at least to me….with such a large distinction of pace and Kobe being a guard, he should average more, and if not more, at the least the same. As it is now LeBron averages a bit more than 1.5 times as many assists a game as Kobe. ”
let’s look at the several variables: pace, offensive scheme, and position. to you, the pace and the position are factors that should help kobe have more assists than lebron. we already discussed the position case above, so the main issue that you bring up is pace. i was about to present a hypothetical adjustment of numbers based on pace and offensive schemes, but it got very messy very quickly since it’s conjectural by nature. however, the main point is still plausible: lebron averages more assists on a slower paced team, but he controls the possessions and his passes are usually directly converted into shot attempts; kobe may play in a faster pace, but he does not control the possessions and the triangle offense dictates that his passes are usually converted into subsequent passes. in the former case, assists are inflated, and in the latter assists are deflated. so in the end, it generally evens out, and since their differences are not that large, it’s hardly a conclusive thing to say lebron is a better passer than kobe based on stats (including assists per possessions, as i showed that this is not an apples-to-apples kind of stat).
“Even if they are equally talented passers, if LeBron is more willing, he’s a better passer.”
your use of “talented” and “better” separately in this sentence indicates to me that you have different assumptions than i do. for me, if both are equally talented, then lebron can not be better than kobe. lebron’s being a more willing passer just makes him…more willing.
“My point is this about the scoring. They aren’t equally effective. LeBron is more effective and more efficient as of now. If the playoffs come, and defenses clog the lane and he misses jumpers while Kobe makes them, then Kobe is the more efficient scorer. But as of now, LeBron is the more effective scorer.”
as of now, yes lebron is more effective. i already pointed that out several times. i think you’re carrying this discussion in relation to what’s happening currently in the season whereas i’m making my assertions relative to their general bodies of work up till last season, which is why i think we’re apparently disagreeing on this. i think we can agree that kobe is in a slight offensive slump this season (due to age, a long year, less offensive opportunities, less minutes, still unrepaired pinky, etc). however, before this season, kobe and lebron have had very comparable TS% and eFG%, so to say that lebron is more effective because he gets easier buckets while kobe shoots harder jumpshots is not accurate. it’s too early in this season to make any conclusions, so for simplicity’s sake, the only thing we can say, like you said, is that as of now, and only as of now, lebron is slightly more effective offensively. this could change either way by the season’s end.
“Agreed about the skilled definition, however the problem with that definition is that athletic ability can be introduced, and then its difficult for me to agree that Kobe has more skill. If we were to say skill are the abilities of a player, not taking into account his athleticism, then Kobe is indeed more skilled. I think that is a more fitting definition for our conversation.”
i was actually excluding physical advantages in the definition of skilled. lebron’s physical attributes compensate for his lack of skills relative to kobe, which is why lebron can be just as effective. considering skill and athleticism combined, lebron and kobe are nearly the same, since kobe is less athletic but more skilled. i believe we don’t have a disagreement here.
“Curious about one thing though. You say, “lebron has only one method of scoring, while kobe has a myriad. take away lebron’s ability to get to to the hole, and you take away his entire game.” If not saying that Kobe is a better scorer here, then what are you saying? I realize you never said those specific words, but it sounds like that is what you are inferring, unless you are just making a random statement? Kobe is more versatile on offense? Just curious about that, I read it wrong initially.”
i’m saying kobe is a more talented, versatile scorer. this does not imply that kobe is generally a more effective scorer, although in different circumstances it would make kobe a more effective scorer. skilled and effectiveness are different things: shaq was very effective at scoring, but not a generally skilled offensive player as kobe. same with lebron. hence lebron and kobe are both effective scorers, but kobe is a more skilled scorer.
“One more point I didn’t bring up and just remembered. Assist to turnover. LeBron’s is much higher than Kobe’s and for an offense so centered around LeBron, his should be higher than Kobe’s right? Let me know which reason allows Kobe to rank significantly lower in that category.”
i don’t think there’s much to discuss here because i do believe kobe is prone to more turnovers than lebron, but again, the issue of assists as explained above skews the ratio. there is one significant thing to note about turnovers, however. we both know kobe is a more skilled player than lebron, and one particular skill is in footwork and being able to improvise offensively. lebron tends to use his physical advantage to ram his way to the hoop, but kobe finesses his way using improvisation to weave between and throw off defenders. i believe this is what causes kobe to have more turnovers, since more difficult things also tend to entail larger risks. it’s much harder to lose the ball when you’re simply holding on to it while barrelling your way to the hoop than it is while employing aesthetic and incredible, yet complicated, maneuvers to get there.
Well put. I think we are on the same page for 90-95% of things. With regards to scoring, yes I was only talking about this year and had not realized you’d meant in recent years. Kobe does appear to be in some kind of slump. His shooting is down, and he even seems to be having a more difficult time getting to the line, something he is great at.
My point with the passing (or I suppose any skill) is essentially this: to me there are two components. The skill component (being physically able to do this. Shoot a jumpshot well, jump to grab a rebounder, have good court vision, etc.) and then the desire/willingness/etc factor (not sure how I would describe this for shooting, but for rebounding its your hunger to track down the ball like Rodman, and for passing its your willingness to pass). You could have the court vision of JKidd, but if you don’t wanna throw the pass, you aren’t a good passer. Now if you look at what I said about Kobe and LeBron being equally skilled passers, but LeBron being more willing, maybe what I said about LeBron being a better passer will make more sense?
i can see now where you’re coming from with the two distinctions, skill and willingness, and in that respect, lebron would get the slight nod. i think we disagreed because willingness was not a factor for me in deciding who was better because their disparity of willingness is not too large (as in, it’s not like kobe holds on to the ball without passing to his team mates anymore). for me, willingness might have to do more with a player’s maturity than “betterness”, but of course you can argue maturity is part of being better. and then there’s the issue of fabricated maturity versus actual maturity, so it gets messy once again. in any case, this was the best conversation i had with someone opposing my opinion. it’s a breath of fresh air.
Agreed. Kobe is certainly a much more willing passer now that he has players who can actually finish, and not the Kwame Browns of the world. It was a real good discussion, finding someone who can be mature and make a logical point without stepping on toes.
Yeah a collegue of mine overheard me talking about Kobe and the Lakers and she said ill Kobe Bryant sucks, I hate the Lakers so I asked her why??? and she said he’s arrogant, he’s conceded, she don’t like him but I said you don’t have to like him, just like his game and what he does on the court day in and out. And she had nothing to say, people need to not hate and give credit where credit is due and Yes Lebron deserves his credit because he is a force to be reckon with. I say this about Lebron all the time he’s more efficient % then Bryant because he goes to the basket alot more and we all know a dunk has a higher percentage to go in then a jump shot but you can’t knock Lebron because the dude gets to the basket at will, noone stops him and so why should he take a jumpshot if he can get to the basket anytime he wants. I agree Lebron is on his way to take the lead from Bryant but right now Kobe is still at the top of the pack.
Hey guys,
Sorry if I’m missing something, as I kind of skimmed through the posts. But don’t you think it’s funny how, when Kobe’s numbers go down, it’s because he’s dropped off? You would think that his number would go down because of his BETTER TEAM, not because he dropped off. For some reason, this logic eludes many.
Look at KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen. Pierce was averaging 24-25 ppg consistently as the “main guy” on Boston. Ray Allen was averaging in the mid to upper 20’s as “the guy” on Seattle. KG was averaging dominant double-doubles as “the guy” on Minny. And Kobe was averaging 35.4 ppg as the guy on LA.
Now let’s take a look at their averages, but more importantly their teams. Boston’s “Big Three” for instance. Ray Allen now leads the team in PPG, with around 20. Paul Pierce and KG are both averaging a few points under 20 per game. Have they all radically dropped off? NO. They’re much the same players that they were when they were carrying their teams. The only difference is that they are a couple of years older. And they have a CHAMPIONSHIP team around them. You don’t hear any fans talking about how Paul Pierce’s lowered averages make him a lesser player. Instead, he’s praised for being more of a “team player”.
Now when Kobe’s average goes from 35.4 ppg, to 26 ppg, it’s because he’s lost something. He’s OBVIOUSLY not as good as someone with a higher scoring average, because he doesn’t score as much. It just doesn’t seem fair.
Lastly, I always laugh when Kobe is called selfish. The main reason he is called selfish, is usually because of his assist totals. Yet he LEADS his team in assists!! I don’t get how a guy who “doesn’t pass the ball” can lead his team in assists.
Ok, that’s it for me, I’ve got to calm myself down, lol.
And it’s good to hear from you Josh.
Kobe and Lebron are close. Who’s better? Don’t know, but to Lebron’s credit he has improved upon most, if not all, the things that made me put him behind Kobe in the past(jump shot, 3pt shot, defense, free-throw %).
Having said that, a big thing in Kobe’s favor, imo, is that he can still be compared to the current group of great players while in his 14th season! It’s no shock to me IF a great player in his 7 season has surpassed a great player in his 14th season. Will Lebron be as good as Kobe 7 years from now? Remains to be seen. Part of Kobes greatness is that he has continued it for this long. I know Kobe started young but how many other past great players were playing at the level Kobe is at now in their 14th year?