John Krolik: The Other Side of the Debate
John Krolik of Cavalier Attitude (among other things — the man is everywhere) recently emailed me. Apparently, he considers me a “worthy adversary.” That’s right, he’s a Cavs fan (and, by extension, a LeBron fan — how could you not be when you watch that much Cleveland basketball?), and not only that, but a Cavs writer, covering the Cavs for MVN.com. And he emailed me, first to let me know he likes the site, and second to initiate further discussion on LeBron James and Kobe Bryant. Before I go any further, I hope you won’t mind if I permit myself a prideful moment and quote to you a small portion of Krolik’s email to me that got me all choked up (not really — real men don’t cry, right Dwyane?):
That’s right, he’s on the LeBron James side of this debate. He’s a Cavs writer (though he does cover the Lakers, as well). Not only that, but he was predisposed against my site. And yet, he approves of what I’ve done here. (Sidenote: “empirical in its subjectivity” — I like that.) How refreshing to find a Cavs fan who doesn’t feel the need to suggest that I remove myself from Kobe Bryant’s private area, but instead is reasonable enough to recognize a rational, well formulated argument. My hat is off to John Krolik. Alright, enough about how “the enemy” approves of what I’ve tried to do here. Back to Krolik. In his email, John proceeded to make several counterpoints to points I have made on this site, either in the articles or in the comments. He indicated that he’d like to start a discussion, and would be interested in posting our discussion on the web sites for which he works. I thought that was a great idea, but as some of you may have been aware, have been busy with family issues (which then transitioned straight into the all-important Kobe Bryant Blog Day, which I couldn’t miss). I’ve finally found the time to respond to the points John made in his email, and I’ve decided to post it here in the form of a discussion, point by point. WARNING: Krolic had a lot to say, and obviously I’m nothing if not verbose, so this is ridiculously long. As such, I have separated it into several pages. Read at your own risk, and don’t forget to click through to the next page when you reach the end of this one. I’ve prattled on long enough. Let’s get to my virtual conversation with John Krolik. Enjoy! JK: For the record on [LeBron James' All-Star MVP Award]-8 more rebounds and 8 more assists is more than a little significant-simple gorilla math tells you that just the assists meant LeBron was responsible for a good 16 more points than Allen. There are games where Sasha or Fish get hot for the Lakers and end up with 15-18 points on some ridiculous percentage-Sasha’s near the top of the L in TS% right now-but Kobe’s still the guy most responsible for the win because of his all-around impact, even if he doesn’t have the greatest shooting night. More importantly, it’s the All-Star MVP. Who gives a f—? JT: Does it matter? No. Not really. But I brought it up not because it, in and of itself, really mattered, but because it is an example of the preferential treatment LeBron receives from the League. There are other examples. The ESPN video homage to LeBron’s “youngest to 10,000 points,” while no such homage was made for Bryant’s “youngest to 20,000 points,” is one (in fact, one of the things you heard the most from the media when Bryant hit that benchmark was, “Yes, BUT…” — you know, others did it in fewer games, etc.; the same is true for James, but was hardly mentioned). The clotheslining of Wade and the elbow to Webber, which followed not long after two inadvertent elbows by Bryant, but neither of which resulted in a suspension for James, is another. While I don’t think it has any bearing on LeBron’s game whatsoever, and therefore will not criticize him for it (it is a criticism of the NBA, the media, and fans, not of James, who can’t help how people choose to view and portray him), surely you can’t deny how obvious it is that the NBA and the media are just dying to crown James and place him on his throne? The All-Star MVP issue was really just an example. Regarding that game, I’m not in any way writing off his rebounds or assists. And I’m not writing off his overall contribution. And your points about Kobe vs. Vujacic, etc., are well made. However, what’s important to note is when those points came. When Farmar or Vujacic score 21, 24, 28, etc., that doesn’t necessarily make them the MVP of the game. However, I believe that in at least one such game, perhaps two, nearly half of Vujacic’s points came in the 4th quarter, and he was the primary scorer keeping the Lakers in (or their opponents out) of the game. In that situation, he is the MVP of that game (and only that game) — and in that case, he was in fact recognized as such. That’s my point with Ray Allen. More efficient? Sure. Does that, itself, make him MVP? By no means. But scoring 14 of the last 18 points for the East, while the West made a HUGE push — that’s what made him the most valuable. It’s when he scored those points. It’s the fact that, at a certain point, with James’ points already tallied, the West and East were dead even. And at that point, when every possession counted, Allen almost single-handedly kept the East in the game, and eventually won it for them. That’s why he should have been MVP. JK: From my point of view, any “disrespect” of Kobe comes not from the media but from fanatical fans who blindly call Kobe the best in the game and brush away all other possibilities. JT: I agree with you that “fanatical fans who blindly call Kobe the best in the game and brush away all other possibilities” tend to generate a lot of the disrespect toward Kobe. Those who disagree feel the need to respond, and those discussions quickly turn into “flame wars.” But there is a great deal of it that is actually not a response to that. The mass media loves to hate Kobe. Or, at the very least, the hate him at least as much as they love him. Meanwhile, I can’t recall the last negative article I read about LeBron James. In addition, James has received the same blind devotion that Lakers fans give Bryant — but even more so, and not only from Cleveland fans. The difference is that blind devotion to LeBron doesn’t generate the same negative reaction (except from Lakers fans, of course). I’d suggest that there’s definitely more to it than that. I’ve discussed it some in the comments here on RespectKobe.com, but I believe it’s primarily two things. First, people who weren’t ready to accept Kobe — for many of whom it was because they couldn’t accept that anyone had the potential to be as great as MJ — felt a need to dismiss him. It was there, I think, that Kobe hating started, and it was their vocal criticism that has spread and caught on — despte the fact that many of the criticisms are, in fact, false. The other kind of Kobe hater is the fan of another great player. I’ve mentioned in the comments on my site that it’s natural for a fan to get excited when they see one of their own becoming one of the greats. The natural reaction is to want that to happen now (despite the fact that it’s usually a journey that can take years), and they want every one else to recognize it. This is natural; I’ve certainly been there before, when I was younger. This, I believe, is why Heat fans have been so anti-Kobe in the past couple years, and why Cavs fans are now so anti-Kobe. Kobe is what stands in the way of their favorite player being recognized as the game’s best. Therefore, if they can discredit him and dethrone him, it will be wide open for their favorite player to step in and be recognized as the best. Again, this is only natural, and I understand it. However, this is also a major source of the “disrespect” Kobe receives. I’m willing to meet in the middle, and agree that Lakers/Kobe fans and the various “Kobe haters” (be they MJ fans, D-Wade fans, LBJ fans, Kings fans, etc.) contribute equally to the widespread “hating” of Kobe Bryant on the internet, in sports bars, etc.. Lakers/Kobe fans’ passion, expressed in unsubstantiated, sweeping generalizations and sometimes causing them to “hate on” other players, propels the “Kobe haters” to become more vocal. “Kobe haters,” on the other hand, cause Lakers/Kobe fans to become more vocal. It’s a vicious cycle. However, I’d suggest that, at this point at least, it is a cycle from which players like Jordan, Wade, and James have been spared, and Bryant has not. Click below for the next page, where Krolik and I further discuss the MVP race, and more. |
Filed Under Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, MVP, Statistics | 32 Comments
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This is another article that Cavs fans should look at a get good info from. I did have bad things to say about Lebrons 50 point game because when Kobe went scoring crazy, the media called him a ballhog, selfish and the list goes on but Lebron tells the crowd or whoever he was talking to at the time that he was going to score 50, so ain’t that abit selfish. I have never ever seen Kobe say or do anything like that but Lebron get praised for doing it and Kobe gets killed for it. Thats the only problem I had with Lebron 50 point performance vs. Knicks. This article was great insight.
Nice counterpoints, very well argued! (Season Series JT 1-0 JK 0-1! =) ). Both great writers though. I’m reading over JK’s blog and it’s apparent he’s the LBJ version of you, good writer with a logical thought process. Very rarely do I see an LBJ supporter both write well and logically, unlike the media’s deification of LBJ.
As a side note, here’s something relevant to your discussion, concerning the argument that LeBron makes his teammates better, whereas Kobe doesn’t. You threw out some things in regards to Smush, Kwame, Marshall, and Hughes. Kinda long, so please bear with me.
When it comes to the MVP vote, LeBron supporters trumpet his dominant stats. When Kobe supporters point out that he is averaging, for all practical purposes, the same production against the West, while averaging less minutes, and leading his team to (currently) the 2nd-seed (Houston is beginning to look legit IMHO), they claim an intangible.
LeBron makes his teammates better, while Kobe doesn’t.
Which brings us to the most overrated issue in sports, particularily in b-ball. I am sick of the argument that certain players make others better, simply by passing the ball, when it is obviously not true. Anyone that has played basketball at any level (maybe even Hollinger played 1st-grade little league) should know this.
For most people, apparently averaging more assists = making their teammates better, when it’s just not true. What happened to the part about making your teammates better, and not your own statline? Let’s take a look at some "stats", as most LeBron supporters are adamant on the fact that the MVP should be the MSP, ie. Most Statistics Player.
LeBron DOES NOT make his teammates better.
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Though LeBron is a fabulous player, something hasn’t felt right to me in a long time. How come many great players (ie. Baron Davis, Kidd, Jermaine O’neal, Garnett) would love to come to LA and play with Kobe, whereas I don’t hear this very often concerning James. In fact, Carlos Boozer, now an All-Star PF with the Jazz, went on paper to say that he would LOVE to play in LA with Kobe, before going to Utah…while he was still a Cavalier and thus, a teammate of LeBron. The same goes for Larry Hughes, who made it a point, before and after his trade, that he wanted out of Cleveland.
Why is this a regular occurence to players that were stars (Hughes) or have become stars (Boozer) with the modern-day Cavaliers? I don’t think anyone ever had a problem playing with Mark Price. Is this issue, in itself, not a knock against LeBron?
Everyone knows that he dominates the rock. You can argue that he would still be a great player without dominating the ball, but his current play style and skill set, along with the Cavs’ offensive system, means that he would be nowhere near as effective as he currently is without dominating the basketball.
The only players who have shown any improvement, prior to teaming up with LeBron, are Drew Gooden (now with the Bulls) and Carlos Boozer (as we know, now an All-Star with the Jazz).
Boozer was a rookie the year before LeBron, already crowned "King", appears. Cavalier-gate not withstanding, Boozer had a decent year with him before heading to Utah. His field goal percentages dropped while playing with, Lebron but his scoring average went from 10 to 15.5 ppg.
Gooden saw his field goal percentage leap from 44.5% to 49.2% in his first season with LeBron, and his scoring average jumped from 11.6 to 14.4 ppg. However, his scoring would subsequently drop back down in later seasons. In the subsequent two and a half seasons, his scoring average dipped to 10.7, 11.1, and 11.3 ppg, all lower than his first three seasons in Memphis and Orlando.
This is why the "LeBron makes his teammates better" is such a confusing argument to me. When we once said these things about Steve Nash and Jason Kidd, the most apparent thing was the improvement of his teammates the minute they joined the team. Same players, same system…yet adding these guys to the mix greatly increased the scoring statistics of their respective teammates.
However, LeBron’s teammates have consistently played worse with him than anywhere else in their careers.
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Ilgauskus was an All-Star caliber center before playing with LeBron. Once averaging a career-high 17.2 ppg bf LeBron’s rookie year, "Big Z" has seen his numbers drop to 13.5 ppg this season, while playing basically the same minutes (30.0 mpg in 02-03 vs. 30.5 mpg in 07-08). The past three seasons, he has seen his number of shot attempts drop from 13.9 shots per game in 02-03, to 11.9, 12.5, 11.4, 10.1, as LeBron has increasingly dominated the ball.
In 02-03, Ricky Davis averaged 20.6 ppg, shooting 41% from the field and 36% from the 3. When LeBron became a Cav, Davis’ scoring average plummeted to 15.3 ppg. Traded 22 games later to the Celtics, his shooting percentage increased from 43% to 48.9%, and his three point percentage from 35% to 38%.
Eric Snow had averaged 12.1 on 44.2%, 12.9 on 45.2%, and 10.3 ppg on 41.3% in 3 previous seasons with the 76ers. In 04-05, LeBron’s second year, he was traded to the Cavaliers. His ppg dropped to a pathetic 4.0 ppg on 38.2% shooting, despite playing a 22.8 minutes per game. The following year, LeBron’s third with the Cavs, Snow, lead by the great leader that Bron is, averaged an awe-inspiring 4.8 ppg on 40.9%, while playing 28.7 mpg.
Kevin Ollie, a teammate of Snow’s in Philly, saw his shooting percentage drop from 44.1% to 37%, his one season playing alongside the King.
In 05-06, Cleveland acquired Donyell Marshall and Damon Jones, two deadly outside shooters, in a bid to surround James with 3-pt bombers to put the Cavs in championship contention.
In his two seasons with Toronto, Marshall averaged 13.9 ppg, shooting 45.5% from the field and 41% on 3′s. In just 04-05 with the Raptors, Marshall scored 1..5 ppg on 44.3% fg and 41.6% from 3′s in 25.3 mpg. However, when he joined the Cavs in 05-06, his scoring plummeted to 9.3 ppg, while shooting 39.5% from the field and 32.4% from three, in 25.6 mpg, substantial drops in productivity while playing more minutes. In three seasons with the Cavs, Marshall never shot better than 35.1% from 3-pt range, whereas he had no worse than 38% from 3-pt range the past 4 seasons.
Damon Jones averaged 11.6 points, 45.6% fg and 43.2% shooting from beyond the arc for Miami in 04-05. In 05-06, playing alongside the guy that "makes players better, while Kobe doesn’t", Jones’ shooting dropped to 38.7% from the field, and 37.7% from 3.
To the blogger of larryhughespleasestoptakingstupidshots.com or whatever that site’s name is…
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It finally comes down to this, the "Pippen" to LeBron’s "Jordan", the Robin for LBJ’s Batman. Larry Hughes, the guy that Cavalier fans love to hate, the guy that an entire city blames for being such a crappy player that he is not worth the contract of "Sideshow Bob" Varejao.
In the 03-04 season, Hughes averaged 18.8 points on 40% fg. In 04-05, he averaged 22 ppg on 43% from the field. In both years, he played alongside one of the (supposedly) most selfish players in the league in Gilbert Arenas.
In his first season alongside LeBron, Hughes saw his production drop to 15.5 points on 40% shooting. He never averaged more than 15.5 ppg, or shot better than 40%, while playing 2.5 seasons with LeBron. He was averaging 12.3 ppg on 37.7% shooting for Cleveland, when he was recently traded to the Bulls (for another "bust" in Ben Wallace, a bona-fide over-the-hill player that Cavs fans believe will help them win a title.).
For me, this says it all. In his subsequent 11 games for Chicago, Hughes is averaging 15.4 ppg and shooting 40.3% from the field, while playing the same amount of minutes a game as he did in Cleveland.
Likewise, Drew Gooden another Cavs player traded to the Bulls, was averaging 11.3 ppg on 44% from the field for Cleveland, with 0.6 blocks and 8.3 rebounds. In those subsequent 11 games for the Bulls, while playing the same amount of minutes that he did for the Cavs, he has improved his production to 12.9 ppg on 47% shooting, with 1.5 blocks and 9.1 rebounds.
In his SI interview, Gilbert Arenas, responding in regards to people calling him a "selfish player" that "does not make his teammates better":
That’s the only reason the guys on this team like playing with me. That’s why Larry Hughes loved playing with me because at the end of the day, even though I take a lot of shots, it doesn’t seem that way because if you average 19 [points] and you’re getting 19 [shots], you’re not looking at mine.
I’m not even going to lie, I’m not going to put words in his mouth,” Arenas said. "But he [Hughes] told me in training camp, ‘Man, I want to come back.‘
And, Mr. Hibachi on the Cle-Chi-Sea trade:
They got rid of big man scoring from Gooden and a guard who can play defense and stick all of the other teams’ best guards in Hughes. Now they don’t have that anymore.
I don’t want to speak for him, but we are texting back and forth and he seems happy.
Of course.
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As Larry’s replacement, we get the wonderful Wally-World from Seattle. Let’s just do this REAL simple for the "LeBest makes his teammates better while Kobe basically sh*ts on his" fans. Finally, they claimed, we got a guard/forward that can actually shoot, instead of the "useless", All-NBA class perimeter defender in Hughes.
Let’s bring out the all-encompassing stats once again. Wally’s stats:
06-07 Celtics – 15.0 ppg on 41.5% fg, 41.5% 3pt, in 28.1 mpg
07-08 Sonics – 13.1 ppg on 46.0% fg, 42.8% 3pt, in 23.6 mpg
07-08 Cavs - 10.5 ppg on 31.8% fg, 36.6% 3pt, in 28.5 mpg
Hmm, was that "LeBron makes his teammates better" again?
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Now for the best part. The part where we state, what has been obvious to this diehard fan that has watched every Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, Cavaliers, and Celtics game this year. I’ve made it a point to watch all the Cavs games I record on League Pass, because…what can I say. Yah I love Kobe, but LeBron sure is exciting in his own way.
But I’ve come to the following conclusion.
Kobe makes his teammates better. Much, MUCH better.
Let’s get back to Smushy Poo and Stonehands, as well as a couple other bonafide D-leaguers that have had an absolute priveledge to play with the best player in the league.
Parker started with (lo and behold) the Cavaliers in 02-03, the year before James’ rookie season. He bounced around from Cleveland to Detroit to Phoenix. In those 3 seasons, he played 82 games, shooting a combined 42% from the field and 26.5% from the arc, averaging 6.2, 3.0, and 3.0 ppg. Over those 3 seasons, he averaged 5.5 ppg.
In his first season with Kobe, Smushy averaged career-highs with 11.5 ppg, shot 44.7% from the field, and 36.6% from the arc. His second season with Kobe Bean saw him average 11.1 ppg while shooting 43.6% from the field and 36.5% from the arc.
However, not only did this imbecile not treat his oppurtunity with Kobe as a blessing, he remained a petulant, turnover-prone defensive liability. Of course, all Laker fans know how terrible of a player this guy is, even though Kobe constantly made him look much better.
"Star" coach Pat Riley subsequently signs him to the league-leading (in losses) Miami Heat. Smush then averages 4.8 ppg on 31.5% fg and 25% 3pt. On a team that was in desperate need of PG play, the idiot ended up in Riley’s doghouse, playing only 9 games. Riley, fed up by the guy’s stupidity, constant whining, complete lack of offensive or defensive game, and offcourt antics, detested Smushy so much that he waited until after March 1st to waive him, so that he would not be able to sign with any playoff team.
I’m proud to report that, having recently played 2 games for our Los Angeles Clippers, Smush is now averaging 6.0 ppg, shooting 29.4% from the field.
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That brings us to "Stonehands" Kwame Brown, the god of blown dunks and layups, and the second coming of Shawn Bradley when it comes to his handsome mug addorning posters of "big guys getting dunked on". The player Mitch "once called Kupcake" traded in essentially a 1-for-1 trade for Pau Gasol, the trade that Kobe called "the coup de grace" and "grand larceny".
Kwame, drafted #1 by Michael Jordan in 01-02, played four seasons in Washington. He shot 38.7%, 44.6%, 48.9%, and 46% in four seasons for the Wizards.
The season he joined Kobe in 05-06, he had successive career-highs, shooting 52.6% in 05-06, followed by 59.1% last season, and 51.5% in 23 games this year. (When I saw that stat, I was like WHAT? Kwame shot almost 60%? @#%(@#&)
In Memphis, he is averaging a career low in minutes (due to his lack of any ability except size), shooting his lowest fg% since his rookie year at 42.3%.
How anyone can tell me that Kwame and Smushy weren’t better just by playing with Kobe Bean Bryant?
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Just some further short ones, since this post is getting too damn long. In order of joining KB24, during this obvious "second stage" of his career:
Jumaine Jones – In 03-04, shot 34.4% from the field, 29.5% from three for the Celtics. In 04-05, his lone season alongside Kobe, he shot 43.2% fg and 39.1% 3pt. Since leaving the Lakers, he shot 40.5% from the field and 34.3% from long range in Charlotte, and saw those numbers deteriorate further in Phoenix till he was waived.
Chucky Atkins – In four seasons bouncing around with Orlando, Detroit, and Boston, averaged 9.7 ppg, 41.0% fg and 35.2% from beyond the arc. In his lone season with Kobe in 04-05, averaged 13.6 ppg, 42.6% fg and 38.7% from the arc. The last 2 years, he has bounced around on 3 teams, shooting a combined 40.4% from the field, 36.3% from three, and averaging 10.8 ppg.
Chris Mihm – 46.2% career field goals. First 3.5 seasons in Cleveland, 54 games in Boston. Never shot higher than 49%. Career highs in scoring (10.2) and fg% (51.7%) in 3 seasons, 153 games with Kobe.
Lamar Odom – The player that many people pick out as Kobe’s "all star" running mate, and the one that they say Kobe made worse In reality, he’s become an all-around difference maker playing alongside KB24. In 5 seasons with the Clippers and Miami. His previous career high shooting percentage was 46% from the field with the Clippers in his 2nd year. In 03-04, he shot 43% playing alongside D-Wade and Caron Butler.
Since 04-05, his first season with the Lakers alongside Kobe, he has shot 47.3%, 48.1%, 46.8% in an injury riddled season, and 51.5% THIS SEASON. If we remove last season’s 46.8%, where Lamar was racked by shoulder and knee injuries, he has improved his shooting, with new career high fg%’s every season with KB24.
Derek Fisher – Three seasons for Golden State and Utah saw him shoot 39.3%, 41% and 38.2% from the floor, while shooting 37.1%, 39.7%, and 30.8% from 3pt range. Since returning to the Lakers and playing alongside the new and improved, constantly double-teamed Kobe, he has shot career highs in 44% from the field and 41.3% from the arc.
Didier Ilunga-Mbenga – Played a total of 95 games for Dallas and Golden State in previous 3.5 seasons, shooting 45.4% from the field. Shooting 51% in 15 games for the Lakers. Wow. Kobe is even making "Stonehands Jr." better.
Pau Gasol – 51.1% career field goals. 6.5 seasons with Grizzlies, with career high 53.8% fg last season. In 19 games with the Lakers and KB24, career high 58.1% fg.
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Feel free to use the above data against Kobe’s detractors.
PS. respectkobe.com is a part of my dailty routine now, at work or at night on Sundays (http://ww.respectkobe.com, refresh, refresh, refresh). So it’s hard to “get a life” when the Lakers are such a huge part of it!
1st off, I can only hope that the theme of "hey this guy might be wrong, but at least he can write a little and seems to be wrong in a reasonably well-thought out way" continues throughout the comments here. Thanks for the kindness, at least initially. Two good points in the first two comments, so I’ll try and respond to them:
1. I gotta admit, I’ve been watching LBJ since high school and I was THRILLED to see him mouth "fifty" to Spike and then go out and get it, and I wouldn’t be if I was a Kobe fan and saw him do it. I think it has to do with the biggest criticism of LeBron from the shoulders up is that he’s been too passive-see last year, when he was accused (perhaps fairly) of mailing in the season, taking too long to make decisions with the basketball, of putting his "NOW"ness ahead of his basketball, and most off all when he passed the buck on the final shot to Donyell Marshall in game 1 of the Pistons series. There’s always been the feeling with him, because of his physical dominance, that the biggest obstacle between him and legendary status is whether or not he wants it enough. He’s always shown that he wants the right things in terms of wanting his team to win, but the question is whether he wants ENOUGH, if that makes any sense. That game showed a singular sense of determination and willingness to take responsibility that LeBron guys love to see.
Kobe’s a bit of a different story, as there’s never been a question about whether he’s driven or not; he’d rather die than lose a ping-pong match. With Kobe, the question (this is media perception-I’m not going to waste the words trying to determine if it’s justified or not) is whether that drive is focused on himself or the greater entity, which is why the mass media and Kobe fans get excited when Kobe puts up something like 13/4/8 in a Laker win; we know the drive will always be there, but we need to be shown that the drive is focused correctly. With LeBron, we assume he wants the right things, but the question is whether or not he’s determined enough to attain them, which is why the double standard reflected by the Knicks game and the 81-point game, but LeBron won’t be praised for relinquishing the need to dominate in order to support the greater good the way Kobe is.
(Of course, these notions perpetuate themselves, which is why if LeBron starts launching perimeter shots and goes 9-24, he’s seen as mailing it in, while Kobe taking two shots in the final half of game 7 is seen as his competitive nature manifesting itself in a misguided attempt to prove his worth to the world at the expense of the good of his team- it’s not perfect, Brittney, but I hope it answers your question as to the difference in media coverage.)
2. Ugh. JT, I respect the idea, but think you’re looking at a small and carefully selected sample to prove your point, and do have counterpoints, but space is a concern for me here. Some of my points on this are in "Part II" with Josh, but to say it shorter and more eloquently than I did then (my favorite thing about this process is it forces/allows me to constantly re-think and re-form what I was saying in the process of getting my point across), I think what’s more important than "Making your teammates better" is "Making your team better," (If Lamar, Luke, and Fish get three more shots each but Kobe gets 9 less per game, they’re all better, but the Lakers aren’t) and I don’t think there’s a doubt both LeBron and Kobe do that. +/- is great for this, and LeBron and Kobe both have HULKING +16.4 and +10.5 on/off court numbers, respectively. Guys who take a lot of shots and have negative +/- numbers like Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph, Eddie Curry, and Rudy Gay, all of whom are great offensive players who have extreme deficiencies in their passing and defensive abilities-those are the guys I’d hold "not making their teammates better" against.
@John Krolik
Thanks for the answer, I have another question…If Lebron is doing the exact same things(carring his team,dominating in stats) Kobe has done for a couple of years without winning the MVP then how can Lebron win MVP? and why are others(media:Jalen Rose, Hollinger) even making arguements for Lebron and molding there criteria for MVP just so Lebron can win it and Kobe can’t?Why Lebron now and Kobe never? I don’t understand the bias if in fact Lebron gets 45-50 wins this season and Kobe gets 50-55 wins this season.
+/- is one of the most severely limited metrics ever devised
The difference between what Lebron is doing now compared to Kobe 2 years ago is Lebron is more efficient and averages more rebounds and assist. 2005/2006 Kobe averaged 35 points, 5 rebounds, 4.5 assist on 45% shooting. Lebron is currently averaging 31 points, 8 rebounds, 7.4 assist on 49% shooting. So he isnt just taking a bunch of volume shoots and just putting up numbers. He’s efficient
Lebron makes his teammates better because he can get inside the paint more then Kobe because he’s bigger at 6-8 260 pounds, quicker, faster. This forces the defense to collapse more and naturally guys are more wide open from playing with Lebron. Im not saying Kobe doesnt create for his teammates,the point is he doesnt get them the same amount of open shots as Lebron does for his teammates.
Kobe is more of a jump shot shooter,so it’s not going to result in as many drives to force the D to collapse and finding a open teammate.
@Brittney M,
You and Krolik both make good points, and I think you’re both right to a certain extent. The truth, I think, lies somewhere in between. Krolik is right in that LeBron does need to show that edge, that desire, that will do win, and that ability to be the guy that does it. However, he’s wrong in one sense:
Kobe has always shown the ability to do that. However, he has never made it about his statistical or individual achievements. (Haters would disagree, and I will touch on that more later, but I have already discussed to a certain extent how Kobe has only ever done whatever was necessary, and usually whatever his coaches asked of him, to win.) Even when he was scoring 62 in 3 quarters against Dallas, or 81 against Toronto, or four straight 50+ games, he never made it about him. The fans and the media wanted to make it about him, inundating him with questions about his personal achievements. But every single time, he deflected those questions, kudos, etc., saying that the win was the only thing that mattered to him. Kobe, do you think you’ll go for a 5th straight 50+ game? He didn’t care about that. I don’t know. I’ll do what my team needs from me. If that’s score, I’ll score, if that’s something else, that’s what I’ll do. The win is what’s important.
That’s the difference here. When I see LeBron telling Spike Lee he’s going for 50, I don’t necessarily see determination to carry his team to a win. I see a guy who wants to score 50. If he looked at Spike and shouted, “Your Knicks are losing tonight!” or, “We will NOT lose!” then that would be one thing. But instead, he turned to Spike and basically said, “Watch what I can do!”
That’s not the same as that killer instinct, that drive, that willingness to take it all on himself, that we see from Kobe. That’s a guy who knows he’s dominating statistically, and who intends to put on a show. And individual show.
So again, I’ve got one foot in each of your camps. In certain ways, it’s good to see from LeBron. But in others, it’s a concern to see that he’s focused on his stats — 50 points is a statistic, not a determination not to lose — rather than on the goal.
@JTbatahk,
Wow. This will take more time than I have right now to really read through this. And as I may have mentioned before, an article diving deeper into this is coming soon. (What will be the results? I don’t actually know; I haven’t done the research yet.)
But I have to agree with you that this stuff does matter. It’s just important that these comparisons are done correctly, which is tricky. (This is something I’ll address in Part II of my chat with Krolik.) But I’m getting to it, for sure. Look for it, soon.
@John Krolik,
I think in the limited response we’ve seen here, people recognize that you’re one of the good guys — even if you’re on the wrong side! Intent and motive count for a lot.
See my comments to Britney regarding LeBron’s 50-point game: I both agree and disagree with both of you.
Regarding JTbatahk’s comment: Part II of our discussion will discuss the method a bit more, and an article to come after that will dive deeper into the actual comparison. We’ll see what that yields, but I do think that these types of comparisons can be made, if they’re done carefully and correctly.
@Brittney M,
I’m with you on this one.
Krolik, perhaps it would help if we phrase this as two separate questions:
1. Who would you vote for this year, and why? And based on that, who would you have voted for the past two years?
2. Who do you think the voters should choose this year, based on their history?
It’s clearly different, and it’s an important question, because it gives you the opportunity to (a) voice your own opinion, defining the MVP in a way that you feel is most appropriate, while at the same time (b) recognizing that there is a precedent, and that the voters should be consistent to it (which, if you can do, would show people that you’re not one of the ones who wants to “adjust the finish line” for LeBron).
But I’ll correct Britney: It’s 45-50 for LeBron, vs. 55-60 and a potential #1 or #2 seed in the West for Kobe.
@kelly,
This is actually something we’ve discussed quite a bit on this site.
But most imporantly, the MVP Award is NOT about statistics. You’ll notice my MVP article doesn’t rely on statistics at all. That’s because they’re not relevant to the discussion. That’s what LeBron’s advocates aren’t getting. You quote LeBron’s superior stats; but Michael Jordan’s ’88-’89 stats were superior even to LeBron’s, and he didn’t win it. That says pretty clearly that it’s not about stats.
That’s interesting about LeBron’s 50 points. Honestly, I’m not surprised though.
Really the one thing that irks me perhaps most of all when it comes to these James / Bryant debates is humility. Where did the media get the perception that LeBron is humble? Some would say that he says all the right things in public, but I don’t even find that to be true.
For example, did any of you see LeBron’s quote about DeShawn (sp?) Stevenson? To be fair, Stevenson did call James overrated, which is an absolutely absurd statement to make. Especially if you aren’t a big star player yourself, I don’t know what Stevenson was thinking.
But here’s the kicker: LeBron responded to the public by saying "That’s like Jay-Z saying something bad about Soulja Boy, there’s no comparison."
Hello? That doesn’t sound very humble to me. Now, Kobe might have done the exact same thing in that situation, I don’t know. But if you couple that quote with LeBron’s well recorded ambition to become the "first billion dollar athlete", his moniker that he has readily bought into, "The King", and now his 50 point guarantee I just don’t see how that can be considered humble.
Also, and I may be reading too much into this, he said that his favorite place to be is his high school, as that is where he left a legacy.
He’s also mentioned (concerning the NY rumors) that he understands why the knicks would want him, because they need a star player that could sell tickets and turn the franchise around. Is that him telling everyone he could right the Knick ship single handedly? Whoa. Well hey, look at what he’s done with Cleveland.
In conclusion, I’m just tired of the double standard that has been pointed out numerous times on this site: LeBron can seemingly do no wrong in the eyes of a lot of the mainstream media. Meanwhile, Kobe would be villanized even further than what he already is, if he said some of the things that LeBron has said.
Why does krolik think that the lakers having a faster pace balances out Lebron having more touches? That’s just faulty logic. It’s the team that has a faster pace, not Kobe. Just because a team has a faster pace doesn’t necessarily mean that a particular player will have a proportionately increased amount of touches.
@Josh Tucker
Thats exactly the point I was trying to make about Lebron’s 50 point game. I think you just say it way better then I do. Kudos to you and this site, I had another question but I forgot it. Will return with the question when I remember it.
@lalball81,
I think that’s a pretty fair assessment. I think it’s pretty clear from the discussions that have gone on in the comments of the most recent articles that LeBron’s apparent humility is something people are trying to put on him that really doesn’t fit. However, his lack of humility isn’t really reported on, because many people would see that as a negative.
Again, though, my take is that it’s actually not a negative for him to be less than humble. I don’t expect someone of his or Kobe’s ability and superstardom to be humble. I think that’s just unreasonable. And also, I don’t see Kobe as humble, either. I don’t think he’s as arrogant as people want to paint him, just as I don’t think LeBron’s as humble as people want to paint him. But I’m not here pretending Kobe’s humble.
My biggest complaint with LeBron is that he’s fake. He’s an image. He’s playing into the oxymoronic humble superstar role that people have set up for him. Like Jordan, he’s very aware of his image, and like Jordan, he won’t do anything that jeopardizes that image. Kobe was like that at one point, as well. I think Colorado ended that, and ever since, he’s just been real. He’s not pretending for anyone.
It’s not the biggest deal. At LeBron’s age, Kobe was fake as well. The big question will be, will he follow in MJ’s footsteps, never willing to jeopardize his image by being real? Or will he be more like Kobe, eventually getting to a point where he doesn’t care as much about his image, and is willing to show his true colors?
I hope it’s the latter, in time.
@hoosier,
What Krolik was thinking was that he could use the Lakers’ pace and Kobe’s usage rating in conjunction.
JK actually corrects himself in Part II, which is coming within the next week or so, but to summarize: He had originally misunderstood Hollinger’s usage stat to be the % of a teams possessions that a player uses. Based on that, he took the extra possessions resulting from the Lakers’ quicker pace, and multiplied it by what he understood as Kobe’s usage rate, and determined how many additional possessions it would mean for Kobe.
In reality, Hollinger’s usage rate is actually the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. As you saw in the article, I showed how to use it correctly. Based on that, Krolik’s premise is incorrect. But it wasn’t his logic that was faulty, it was his information.
It was an honest mistake, though. Just a misunderstanding of what Hollinger’s usage stat meant.
You know Josh, you should run a forum community along with your blog. You have a lot of allies who would love to participate, you know?
@MV,
You’re absolutely right. In fact, just the other day I was thinking the same. No, wait… no, it was today. It was this morning, I was thinking that.
I’ll look into what would be involved in that. Thanks for the good idea! If I can make it happen, then it will happen.
Ok I finally remember the question…
There is no criteria for MVP so some members of the media are making there own criteria and giving it to whoever they want to give it to or vote for so is that fair and should they place a mvp criteria so people won’t go crazy like I am if Kobe doesn’t win it, atleast once. And can we fairly argue with them if there is no criteria to go by?
@Brittney M,
It’s a good question. However, I would argue that while there are no official criteria, there is a very well established precedent and a clear consensus as to what the requirement is for MVP.
It has been 25 years since anyone has won it with fewer than 50 wins in a full regular season (that being Moses Malone 25 years ago).
But it doesn’t stop there. During that time, only two have won it with fewer than 55 wins: Michael Jordan with 50 wins in 1988 and Steve Nash with 54 in 2005. But one look at those makes it clear they were exceptions, and the first Nash MVP, at least, was highly controversial.
Given all of this, I think it’s very clear that there are some very well understood standards. I also think there is more accountability than you think. The media would love to give it to LeBron. But you know what? They know that it would completely invalidate the award, that there would be a huge outcry, and that it would result in either (a) changing how the award works or (b) people seeing it as a worthless award and it completely fading from what limited relevance it now enjoys. And you know what? The media loves the power they hold over the MVP voting. Do you think they’re going to do anything to jeopardize that? Do you think they want David Stern coming in and deciding that the MVP should be voted on players, coaches, GMs, or any combination thereof, rather than the media? Hell no! And do you think they want people to completely ignore them next year, when they do their race to the MVP type articles? Or laugh at them in the comments and mailbags? Absolutely not.
That’s why I think there is more accountability here than we may realize. The media may be blatantly anti-Kobe and pro-LeBron, but they’re not fools (most of them). They realize that, as long as Kobe doesn’t tank in his final 15 games, they have no choice but to adhere to the book they threw at him in the past. (And again, I’m not disagreeing with the past results; I don’t think Kobe should have won in the past — they just need to stay consistent this year.)
Now, if KG or CP3 wins, this all is moot. Lakers fans may get pissed, but there will be a very valid argument for either of those guys. Even I would allow either of those results without responding in indignation. But they don’t want to give it to either of those guys. They really want to give it to LBJ. And after him, Kobe. But they won’t do that. They’ll give it to Kobe, and mark my words, LeBron will come in second in the voting.
But to answer your question: If they give it to LBJ, they will discover that there is much that we can do. We can completely invalidate the award. We can stop caring, and laugh at them whenever they write an article about it in the future. But I highly doubt that’ll be necessary.
So how many of you out there hate Jon Barry? He and Mike Breen are absolutely horrible commentators. Where did all the good ones go? Anyway, Barry constantly kisses Lebron’s ass and it’s somewhat of an annoyance. I can’t say that I enjoy listening to his voice and to add to it all he only wants to talk about how Lebron is "the best to ever drive to the basket."
He did also make comments about what LeBron needs to do to be "on the level of a Kobe Bryant," and when Breen brought up that Tayshaun considers LeBron the toughest cover in the league, he incredulously said "Even Kobe?" I can see how his Rodney Dangerfield shtick could get old in a hurry, but I like the guy-maybe Hubie Brown has lowered the bar that low.
@Josh Tucker
Hopefully they will be consistant and whoever they choose this year better meet the criteria.
@Respect & John Krolik,
Honestly, I haven’t paid enough attention to Jon Barry to know how I feel about him. I’ll pay attention in the future. But I will say that, if what each of you has quoted Barry as saying is actually true, then I see both of your points.
ESPN article Detroit Cavs game:
"James wasn’t about to force the issue for an individual record. As always, his sights were on a win for a team still finding its way with new players.
…
James examined a boxscore as he walked out of the locker room before the start of the third quarter. He must have noticed that he had only tried 10 shots, but that he was getting help from Ilgauskas, who missed seven games with a back injury, as well as Szczerbiak, Ben Wallace and Delonte West — all acquired in last month’s colossal deal."
Now I’m sure it’s pretty usual for athletes to check the boxscore, so i’m not saying what he did was abnormal, but i find it amazing that the writer’s basically given him the benefit of the doubt and portrayed him as a team-first guy, when he could have easily but looking at his own numbers
@Brittney M,
That is really all I ask. And though in the past, I’ve felt like Kobe was robbed, I’ve come to realize that wasn’t the case at all, and that the voters have been extremely consistent over the years. It is only now that that is in danger. However, I believe it will hold up. Consistency is key.
@dtrip35,
You’re absolutely right. First, how do 10 shots in a half qualify as “only” 10 shots? James averages 22.4 shots per game, so 10 shots at halftime is only 1.2 shots short of his average. And since it’s an average, it stands to reason that he would sometimes be above that, and sometimes below. So, at what point did taking a number of shots that corresponds pretty closely to one’s average suddenly become unselfish, a mark of LeBron not taking as many shots as he could?
Secondly, it’s interesting that the first reaction to his examining the box score isn’t that he’s concerned about his own stats. If this were Kobe, people would be accusing him of looking for his numbers. (Yet, I’ve never heard of or noticed him looking at his stats at halftime — not that he hasn’t, but it hasn’t been reported.)
Somehow, James scores fifty just a few nights ago, and is quoted as deliberately looking for his own points, and then a few games later, he’s looking at a box score, and they manage to (a) ignore the possibility that he’s interested in his own stats, and (b) paint it as though it actually shows that he doesn’t care about his own stats?
That’s like seeing someone lingering in the cheese section in the grocery store and assuming that they’re most interested in their healthy diet. It’s just illogical.
And I love this: “James wasn’t about to force the issue for an individual record. As always, his sights were on a win for a team still finding its way with new players.”
Basically, that says he wasn’t about to look for his own stats. As always? You mean, like in New York, right?
(Note: Sorry, Krolik, but as far as I’m concerned, New York showed him as wanting to get his numbers.)
Great site. It earns a spot in my bookmark.
One of the most informative, well written and fair sites I’ve ever been on. Simply brilliant! I was refered to this site by a blogger on ESPN and it hasnt disappointed in the least. I agree with every point you make and it is so great to know that someone feels the same in every aspect, from the media and the obsession with their beloved Michael to the bloggosphere and why us Lakers fans come to the defense of Bryant when ignorance is spewed from the drive-by haters. Keep up the outstanding work. I’m not finished reading everything, but I look forward to it. I also look forward to commenting.
@xrism,
Thanks for the compliments! I think it really helps that I’m coming from the perspective of someone like yourself, rather than a well established sports journalist writing for ESPN. I see things a bit differently. Like you and many others, I see things I want them to pay attention to, and I pick up on things that don’t make sense and I want to call out. I finally decided to start doing that. I think that different perspective has helped to motivate me to research and investigate a lot of the issues that Lakers fans have long felt are obvious, in order to confirm whether or not the things we intuitively understand are true.
I’ve got a pretty long list of articles waiting to be written, but if you have ideas, by all means let me know what you’d like me to explore.
i’m the kobe hater that hates rapists
@Kobe Hater,
I’m the American citizen who hates it when haters like you choose to forget that in this country, you’re innocent until proven guilty.
Let’s try this: I’m accusing you of stealing from me. Regardless of the result of the trial, it seems fair to me that you be branded a thief for the rest of your life, just because I made an accusation.
That’s okay. We’ll still be here when you have a valid point to make.