Kobe vs. LeBron: Part I
I have to tell you, I love TrueHoop. I visit the blog on a daily basis. Henry Abbott consistently provides a wealth of highly insightful and/or entertaining content, and his understanding and analysis of the game and its players is usually top notch. He’s been a breath of fresh air for me, a welcome diversion from the pompous, self-involved, biased, agenda-driven, ratings-hungry, sensationalistic “journalists” over at ESPN.com (and many others like them). That’s why I was surprised to see such lopsided and forgetful analysis from Henry in an ESPN rountable article comparing Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. Let’s break it down:
All six panelists correctly agree that Kobe is better in the clutch than LeBron. But look no further than the second question to see where they go wrong:When asked which player is a better leader, Henry responds with the following:
It’s clear that Abbott equates labeling your teammates as subpar and inferior with poor leadership. Unfortunately, it would seem that Henry has forgotten about LeBron’s quote from this summer, nearing the end of the FIBA Americas Tournament, where LeBron said that he was not looking forward to going back to Cleveland to play with his lesser teammates. The two are essentially the same. Both players labeled their teammates as inferior to other players (in both cases, this other player was usually Jason Kidd). Both players made it abundantly clear that they would rather play with Jason Kidd than with their current teammate(s). But there are a few differences. For one, Kobe’s situation is clearly different from LeBron’s. Kobe is further along in his career than LeBron is, and doesn’t feel he has the time LeBron has to wait for things to develop. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable position for him to take (dont confuse his position with how he goes about communicating it, which is completely different). Kobe also plays in the stacked Western Conference, while LeBron plays in the “LEastern Conference.” This makes it possible for LeBron and a team of nobodies to make it to the Finals, while such is not the case for Kobe. Which leads to the next point: LeBron had just been to the Finals, while Kobe had just been ousted in the first round. All of these things create a different, more desperate situation for Kobe than for LeBron. Surely Henry can’t be implying that it is poor leadership to wish for better teammates, as that would simply be unreasonable. Instead, Henry’s stating that it is in bad form to berate one’s teammates publicly — and I completely agree. However, it is worth noting that Kobe’s comments regarding Andrew Bynum were all thought to be private, and were only made public through the actions of a deceitful, opportunistic “friend” of Kobe’s. Perhaps Henry Abbott can fault Kobe for his private thoughts (or even his private rantings) regarding his teammate; I cannot. After all, I have complained about and spoken negatively of co-workers on many occasions, which is something my wife and other friends and family members can attest to. Haven’t we all? Of course! But that doesn’t mean we went and said as much to the co-worker in question, or trashed them in a company-wide email. That’s what happened to Kobe. It’s hypocritical to fault him for the fact that a supposed friend of his recorded what was meant to be a private rant and then sold it to the public. If my friend did that to me, I would be furious, and he would no longer be my friend. It’s also worth pointing out that Kobe’s public complaints were aimed at the Lakers front office, and never included any specific criticism of his players. While his message was certainly confusing in many respects, the one thing he made abundantly clear was that his issue was with the front office, which he considered “a mess” and felt to have betrayed him in more than one way — all of which, I think it’s safe to say, is also true. Meanwhile, LeBron’s indirect criticism of his teammates was in fact included in a statement he made to the media. He then followed it up, on more than one occasion, reinforcing his sentiments by discussing how much he would like to play with Jason Kidd, and how they often speak of it. Is that the example of leadership? Is that how he intends to instill confidence in them — by saying that he doesn’t enjoy playing with them as much as with others, and continuing to remind them throughout the early part of the season of how much he wishes to play with Kidd instead of them? In short, there’s a double standard here. Abbott, like much of the media (which, to his credit, is uncharacteristic of him), is criticizing Kobe for the same sins that he has conveniently forgotten for LeBron. In reality, the only person who truly deserves to be upset here is Kobe, whose privacy was violated and whose friendship was betrayed when his personal, private frustrations were broadcast to the public. Aside from that, the biggest difference between Kobe’s and LeBron’s public criticisms of their teammates is simply that Kobe is more hyped and less forgiven than LeBron.
|
Filed Under Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, leadership | 47 Comments
Leave a Comment
If you would like to make a comment, please fill out the form below.
You got a link to that LeBron quote where he supposedly said he wasn’t looking forward to going back to Cleveland and playing with “lesser” teammates?
hey, maybe the reason why the media doesn’t like kobe, is that he is distant, unlikeable, and recently involved in a negative rape trial. maybe it is not about some kind of media bias, or whether or not kobe is better than lebron but lebron is new or something. maybe it is just that kobe is a douche. think about it next time you jerk it while looking at the kobe poster above your bed.
Wow the guy taping him had a hidden camera Kobe didn’t know about? Weird. Man, this guy probably wishes Kobe would rape HIM by the sounds of this.
Wow. This is complete garbage on so many levels. You have to be delusional to try to compare comments by Kobe being critical of his situation to Lebron’s. First of all, it was no slight on Lebron’s part towards his teammates when comparing them with Kidd. It was a compliment to Kidd. I’m SURE Daniel Gibson and Eric Snow would agree that they are not on the same level as Jason Kidd. However, Kobe was CLEARLY slighting Bynum. That’s why it drew the attention LeBron’s didn’t, idiot.
Secondly, Lebron has always said the right things on and off the court. He’s a true team player. He compliments his players constantly (which if you watch any Cavs games sometimes can be VERY hard to do), and always reinforces how he “trusts” his teammates. I’ve heard Lebron say countless number of times that he will continue passing to his teammates and they will knock down shots for him. Trying to bring in the “personal” side of this for Kobe as a defense is ludicrous.
LOL..What a dumb site. Congrats and check your boner for Kobe. It has to be chafed by now. Kobe is a great player. Arguably the best (however, that argument is going to be over very soon). James is a superlative teammate. Has been from the beginning. Kobe is a spoiled malcontent. Maybe I should say he “was” a spoiled malcontent. The tiger seems to have changed his stripes. Good for him. However, you’re just sad.
@kobemancrush,
As far as I know, Kobe was not found guilty in the Colorado rape trial. And the last time I checked, we live in a country where people are considered innocent until proven guilty. Unless you intend to forego that entire concept (including when it applies to you), then maybe you should move on from the rape trial. And in the future, it might be good to re-evaluate your tendency to jump to conclusions based on your own bias, and to make judgments based on very little information whatsoever (aside from endless media hype, which we all know to be very reliable).
You want the facts? Michael Jordan cheated on his wife (which is all Kobe has been found guilty of), and has since been divorced from her. He was involved in a major gambling scandal, which many consider to be the reason for his first retirement.
Wilt Chamberlain claimed to have had sex with over 20,000 women, none of whom was his wife.
Magic Johnson was forced into early retirement because he contracted AIDS from a woman who was not his wife (and who was also surely not the first of his extra-marital affairs).
Jason Kidd pleaded guilty to and was convicted of domestic abuse, and had to take a six-month anger management course. He has since divorced his wife, at which time she again lobbied claims of domestic abuse (supposedly resulting in a broken rib and damaged hearing) towards Kidd. While these later claims don’t seem to have been substantiated, they are no more or less true than the rape claims against Kobe — both potentially damaging to one’s reputation, both unsubstantiated. (Although, in this case Kidd actually has a proven history of violence, whereas Kobe does not.)
And yet — despite their moral failures, each of which is equal to or worse than Kobe’s own proven moral failures (cheating) — all of these athletes enjoy highly favorable reputations with fans, and virtually nothing but positive treatment by the media. So I put it to you again: Even if the Colorado rape trial is accountable for much of the negative sentiment towards Kobe, that still reflects an unfair bias against him!
Meanwhile, I think it’s regrettable that you have disrespected yourself with your sad and disgusting ad hominem argument (look it up, you clearly need to):
Really? That’s the direction you want to take with this? And you’re calling Kobe “unlikeable” and “a douche”? That’s just pathetic.
@You’re Stupid,
I appreciate your passion; unfortunately, your arguments are often self-defeating. Let me show you how.
Your primary argument here seems to be that it is not a slight towards one’s teammates to compare them to Kidd as long as they are clearly lesser players than Kidd. However, you apply a standard to LeBron’s teammates that you forget to apply to Kobe’s. After all, I’m not just “SURE” that Andrew Bynum would have agreed that he is not on the same level as Jason Kidd — but he actually did just that! He specifically said that he doesn’t blame Kobe for wanting to trade for Jason Kidd, because Kidd is so great. (Note: Before you try to counter this by saying how great Bynum is playing this year, remember that Kobe’s statements were made before this year, so you have to look at where Andrew Bynum was at the end of last year — and clearly, comparing him to Jason Kidd at the time would have been ridiculous.)
Therefore, if your criterion for LeBron’s statements not being a slight towards his teammates is that they “would agree that they are not on the same level as Jason Kidd,” then clearly Kobe this applies to Kobe’s statements as well. Therefore, according to your own criterion, your assertion that “Kobe was CLEARLY slighting Bynum” is in fact NOT true.
In response to your second argument, I challenge you to find one instance since the Shaq trade where Kobe has directly criticized any of his players. I could certainly find you countless instances where he, also, compliments and praises his teammates — even during the “Smush Parker Experiment.” And, as Miami has discovered first hand, it is every bit as difficult to compliment Smush Parker as it is to compliment LeBron’s teammates, and often even more so. In fact, I would suggest that during those years — when Kobe’s supporting cast was as bad as LeBron’s is now, and often worse (such as in the first season after Shaq and Phil Jackson left) — Kobe also maintained the same composure you praise LeBron for, saying the right things, etc.
Finally, you state that “trying to bring in the ‘personal’ side of this for Kobe as a defense is ludicrous.” Actually, it is not. If you pay any attention whatsoever to the circumstances of the “Kobe video,” you will find that his statements about trading Bynum for Kidd were clearly not made publicly. And unless you are willing to allow your friends and family to record any private frustrations you may express towards your boss and/or co-workers, and then send them to those people — let alone to your entire company — then I suggest, just as I did to “kobemancrush,” that you check your hypocrisy.
After all, if you were to go home to your wife, or out with your buddies, and rant about a frustrating co-worker, or something your boss had done that upset you, only to have your wife or friends relay that information to your boss and co-workers, how would you feel? Should a person’s response to that be, “He shouldn’t have said that,” or should it be, “That was said to them in confidence, and they should not have betrayed that confidence.” Clearly, it is the latter. To say any different is to imply that it is wrong for us to express our frustrations in private, to our friends, family, etc. Yet, we all know that if a person isn’t able to vent his frustrations, sooner or later his is going to “blow up.”
So I put the challenge to you again: Find me an instance where Kobe criticized Andrew Bynum in a public forum. And once you’re unable to do that, you can at least try to find me any instance since Shaq left when he did that to any of his teammates. Until you can do so, you might want to check your hypocrisy.
Here’s another thought for you: Do you think that LeBron doesn’t vent about his teammates, his coach, the Cavs’ front office, etc., in private? Do you think that he doesn’t express frustration towards Varejao for holding out, the front office for not improving the team this summer, and his teammates in general for not being better, or being able to handle the pressure? Because if that’s what you think, then maybe you need to take off your LeBron-colored glasses. Am I blaming him for that? No! It’s normal. But my point is that you can’t blame Kobe for something he said in private, just because someone decided to betray his confidence and make it public.
And as a last note: Any time someone says they aren’t looking forward to playing with someone, aren’t excited about playing with someone, or wish they didn’t have to play with someone, that is absolutely a slight towards that person. Period.
@Funnyshit,
You’re on here using phrases such as “your boner for Kobe” and how “it has to be chafed by now,” and you’re calling me just sad?
That’s just pathetic. You need to learn a little common decency. Come back when you learn to show a little respect for other people, and for yourself.
First of all watch the Cavs v Raptors game that took place on Sunday. Like, seriously download it or something. The highlights dont do it justice. Lebron had 24 in the 4th, and won the game for the cavs ON THE ROAD where they were DOWN 20 when they had no business winning it. it was incredible. Now you might say Kobe does that kind of stuff all the time.. just not true. Lebron won the game not only with his shooting (4 three’s in 4th) but with his driving, his rebounding (11) his passing (8) his defense and his heart.
You’re a Kobe fan so youll just brush a performance like this off.. but it truly was spectacular, and something Kobe just cannot do. Kobe has to hit jumpers or get bail out foul calls to have a performance like that. The sheer power of LeBron is what is so impressive.. he just wouldnt be denied. He turns where Kobe would have to either get bailed out with a foul call, or make some ridiculous low percentage shot into easy layups.
Sure, Kobe can get hot and hit a bunch of shots in a row.. sure Kobe can go off every now and again for 50.. but Kobe cannot put it all together like Bron did in Toronto on Sunday. Lebron got monster rebounds, trusted his teammates on HUGE shots in the 4th dishing out 8 assists, and scored TWENTY-FOUR FREAKIN POINTS IN THE 4TH QUARTER on 8-10 shooting! That’s why he is the best player on the planet.
LeBron LEADS THE LEAGUE in 4th quarter scoring… and he’s been knocked for not being clutch? Ridiculous. He’s been knocked for not having a killer instinct? WATCH THE DAMN GAME! YOU’LL SEE A KILLER! Watch the looks on his face! Watch him jawing with hecklers! WATCH HIM KNOCK DOWN CLUTCH FREE THROWS LATE IN THE 4TH QUARTER!
Or, do what you Kobe fans always do… ignore all of this and continue to rip on lebron for these deficiencies that you think he has.
@You’re Stupid:
You’re right: It was an absolutely incredible performance. And while you’ve clearly already set your preconceptions of me — “…do what you Kobe fans always do… ignore all of this and continue to rip on lebron for these deficiencies that you think he has.” — I’ll go ahead and defy your expectations by saying that there is absolutely NOTHING that I would EVER try to do to detract from his performance in this game.
Now you’re just being silly. I’m almost tempted to just leave it at that. And it’s just so silly, that I’m not going to say any more than this: Kobe has scored more than 20 points in a quarter (including in the 4th quarter) MANY times. He has often secured key rebounds — like the tip-in against Sacramento in Game 7 a few years ago, which led to the overtime in which the Lakers won the game. Or how about the rebound he wrestled from LeBron in their last matchup, which gave the Lakers the chance to win the game? You know, the one he told LeBron he would get? And passing? All the time! How about that MASSIVE comeback against Portland in Game 7 of the 2000 Conference Finals, which Kobe led and capped with his passing (7 assists, including that famous one in the video). Defense? We could go on and on about the numerous clutch defensive moments Kobe has had (LeBron has tasted those himself, more than once). Here’s just one to chew on. Heart? No one in the league has more drive, more will to win, than Kobe does.
But I’m done with this. I don’t even know why I’m trying to reason with someone that’s silly enough to think that Kobe hasn’t had similar performances. How ridiculous.
“Something Kobe just cannot do” — your completely biased, unilateral, “because I say so” statements make me laugh.
And all this “has to get bailed out with free throws” stuff you’ve become so fixated on? I think you’re confusing Kobe and Dwyane Wade. But in case I’m wrong… I’m waiting for your examples.
The best part? Apparently “hitting jumpers” has become a negative thing to you. As in, LeBron’s better because Kobe has to hit jumpers. First, it’s not true, silly. But even more preposterous is the idea you’re advancing that hitting jumpers makes Kobe a lesser player. So, one kind of shot is better than another? Funny, last time I checked the sport was basketball — a sport in which players shoot the ball! Besides, it’s a moot point, since Kobe hits those jumpers.
Apparently, you’re not listening (or reading). I’m NOT knocking LeBron. Unlike you, I try not to let my admiration for one player cause me to become biased against all others. I LOVE LeBron. I do. I think he’s amazing. I think he’s going to become even more amazing. I think the distance between him and Kobe is quickly shrinking. I’m simply saying that he’s not completely there yet. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Are you really so completely obsessed with LeBron that it’s not okay with you that he hasn’t fully developed yet, even though he’s only 23? Is it that much of a problem for you that a player — even one as great as LeBron — would still have a few things to work on at the ripe age of 23?
Get over it! He’s amazing! He’s going to be even more so! All I’ve said is that there are a few areas in which he is not yet better than Kobe. But if you pay attention, I’ve also conceeded some areas (such as overall passing, court vision, and rebounding).
Maybe it’s about time you realize that the blind devotion and rose colored glasses you incorrectly accuse me of having towards Kobe — and the supposed resulting bias against other great players — is actually more true of you in your obsession with LeBron than it is for me.
Take a lesson: In your admiration for one great player, try not to let it prevent you from also appreciating other great players.
I must say, truly your most ‘admirable’ piece yet. However, you’re not fooling me. Yes, you do take the time to formulate your arguments better than mine. Yes, you do use bigger words and more commas and so forth. However my whole point is that i just think lebron is a better, more complete player than Kobe. Lebron affects the game in so many ways, CONSISTENTLY. That’s my whole “kobe cannot do this” argument. Sure kobe has made great plays. Sure Kobe has probly gotten a big rebound/assist here and there. So has McGrady, Barron Davis, Carmelo Anthony, and so on. But none of them do it as consistently as Lebron. Maybe you do not watch Cavalier games, which i understand, but this team counts on lebron for SO MUCH every night. It is MIND BOGGLING to me that he has not won an “MVP” award yet. I dont know what else “MOST VALUABLE” means if it isnt what lebron does. Just like John Hollinger wrote earlier this year… “if you replaced lebron with another really good player, like Paul Pierce, the Cavs would be the worst team by far in the East.” And its so true. Lebron can score 15 points, but WIN THE GAME for the cavs because he had 15 assists. My point with bryant is that sure, some game back in 2000 he had a really big assist/rebound/whatever. Does he do that consistently? Does he WIN GAMES with stats other than points consistently? No.
One of the biggest plays of the double overtime victory against charlotte tonight was the jumpball lebron won with 5 seconds left. Both teams got to CHOOSE which player would be doing the jump ball. Charlotte chose Narz Mohammed (6’10), and the cavs chose.. err, LEBRON CHOSE LEBRON. Lebron out jumped, err, OUTWILLED him for the ball. HE JUST FINDS WAYS TO DO THIS SAME SORT OF THING ALMOST EVERY GAME!
Anyways, getting back to the part about you cant fool me.. i love how you start praising lebron is your last response. Its a great tactic. Because everyone who reads that goes “aw, see he really is a good guy who gives credit to everyone”. BS. You took the time to make a fricken WEBSITE comparing the 2 players because someone wrote an article that you didnt agree with. Yea, sounds like you think the 2 are very close talent wise. There’s been plenty of things written that i havent agreed with over the years, but never did i decide to make a website because i was so frustrated with there point. If you really think lebron is so great, and kobe is just slightly better, then im sure you could FATHOM where someone might think lebron is slightly better than kobe.. hence the guy who wrote the article. Or AT LEAST you wouldnt think his opinion was WEBSITE MAKING material.
According to Elias Sports Bureau, no one in NBA history has had at least 31 points, 19 rebounds, four assists (he had
and three blocks (also had 4 steals) in a game as LeBron did.
..go find a youtube clip or old boxscore for that.
(he had 8 assists) not sure why that got cutoff
Here’s the thing- i don’t know what you want out of this. As an example, i try to make the point that even though Lebron only scored 2 points in the 4th quarter, his impact on the game was still large. You take it, spin it, and turn it into me trying to make the fact he went 0-6 look better, all-together ignoring the point. Now, clearly either one of us could go back and forth and do this sort of thing until we’re blue in the face. It’s a great way to carry out an argument, but i’m tired of arguing.
So what i’m going to do is make a few points, and then be done.
First off you say this:
“This is really the biggest problem here. You’re treating this as though I had made a case for Kobe being better, all around, than LeBron. But you should refer to the disclaimer at the beginning of the first post, in which I specifically stated that I’m not trying to compate the two overall. All I was doing — and all I have done — is respond to specific statements made by Henry Abbott in the ESPN Roundtable article. I did NOTHING more than that. I certainly did NOT make a case for Kobe being better than LeBron, or vice versa.”
As i’ve stated earlier, this is an attempt by you to make yourself look good. You indirectly bash somebody and then clearly state that in no way are you trying to bash anybody. Super. However, two things: 1) This website was made in response to a Henry Abbott article where he concluded that Lebron was superior to Kobe. So if we couldn’t derive from that your personal feelings on the said players, let’s dive further. The websites name is not “RespectLebron.com”, or “RespectKobeAndLebronEqually.com”, or even “KobeIsProbablySlightlyBetterThanLebronButIStillLoveLebron.com”, it in fact is “RespectKobe.com”. So somebody ‘disrespected’ Kobe in your eyes and you thought it worthy to write a 3, long-winded, article response to try and gain some respect back. Hm, ok, well if that doesn’t scream that you’re trying to compare the two, then how about we just scroll up a bit and check out the title- 2) “Kobe vs. Lebron”. Kobe VERSUS Lebron. VERSUS. Not Kobe = Lebron. Not Kobe & Lebron. No, Kobe VERSUS Lebron. Wait, are you hosting a game of 1 on 1 between Kobe and Lebron broad casted live on this website? Nooo. You’re trying to COMPARE Kobe VERSUS Lebron. I’ve said enough on this topic, i dont have anymore VERSUS for this song. I’m VERSED out.
So, now we know you can twist things into Kobe’s favor in almost any circumstance, therefore making arguing with you near pointless. So i’ll leave you with two things.
You recently said this about Kobe:
“Now that he’s taking more than 7 fewer shots and scoring 9 fewer points (and the Lakers are winning!)…”
You went on to twist this into a positive thing for Bryant, though, i don’t think it takes too much thinking to also see a negative. THE LAKERS ARE BETTER THE LESS KOBE DOES. It’s the Gilbert Arenas/Allen Iverson factor. Guys that shoot a poor shooting percentage, though amazing offensive talents, do not maximize the teams potential. This is actually LeBron’s biggest attribute. 1) He makes his teammates better and, 2) he impacts the game in so many ways other than scoring. Kobe/Arenas/Iverson DON’T DO THIS. Though i GUARUNTEE you that there are plenty of ‘people’ out there who would make the case that any one of these players are the single best in the NBA. Now, i feel Kobe is the best out of that trio, but to me, you’re just one of those ‘people’. The Nuggets have never come close to winning anything, and neither have the Wizards. And they never will. And both of those teams have EONS more talent than do the Cavs.
Before i leave, just a fun tidbit for you to chew on. LeBron’s PER in his second season was higher than Kobe’s PER has EVER been.
So all i really want to know from you then is, when will you give the nod to Lebron over Kobe? He has him statistically. His defensive is good, his leadership is great, he’s becoming that “killer” the media knocked him for not being, he makes his teammates better.. Rings? Ok, fair point. though lebron will never play with Shaq in his prime. So post-Shaq era lebron and kobe both have the same number of rings, with lebron being to one more finals than Kobe. I mean do you honestly think Kobe and the Cavs would have beaten Detroit last year? Everyone makes fun of the Eastern Conference. The lakers dont beat detroit last year. Detroit was/is a damn good team. Everyone penciled them in to beat the Cavs. Do you know why they didn’t? LEBRON JAMES.
Kobe had 48 points on 44 shots with 2 rebounds and 2 assists. Lebron had 51 points on 28 shots (18-28) with 8 rebounds and 9 assists (and one ridiculously key steal down the stretch). FIFTY-ONE POINTS WITH NINE ASSISTS!!! And some of the assists he had we essential to winning the game tonight. They weren’t just 9 excuse me assists. I don’t know what could make any of my points more clear than this. Im aware the outcomes COULD be different every now and again… but over the CONSISTENT long haul, this is what happens more times than not. Kobe is a great player, he is not Lebron James.
You know what else i love.. How for the past 48 hours the biggest story in the NBA has been BY FAR the injury to Andrew Bynum. Lets think about that for a second. On NBA coast to coast tonight 6 of them sat there and discussed this injury for like a half hour. Could you imagine if Illgauskus (or insert a Cavalier not named Lebron here) got hurt what the reaction would be? Do you think it would get anything even remotely close to the attention that Bynum’s is getting? If you do, you’re crazy.
So what is that telling us? Bynum is either a) a better player than Z, b) more valuable to his team than Z, or c) both. I would venture to say that if you asked people this question straight up, about 95% of them would say c.
So what does that say about Bryant, and more importantly about James? Its saying Kobe has more help. its saying James doesnt have the caliber of players around him that Kobe does. The Cavs have posted back to back 50 win seasons, and a trip to the NBA Finals. Go ahead and insert your favorite eastern conference joke here, but the cavs have had a winning record against the west in that span. Point being, its ludicrous James hasnt won an MVP award. And people that are putting Kobe ahead of him this year on the ballot, are absolutely fricken NUTS.
Getting back to Bron’s most recent game. I feel i need to reiterate the NINE ASSISTS he had to go along with his 51 points. That means that at the very least he contributed to 18 more points than his 51. Now, im positive that he assisted on at least 3-4 three pointers, so bump that up to about 24 points, and that doesnt even count all the passes he made to people who ended up missing the shot but then got fouled and went to the foul line (which trust me there were some). So you figure a nice estimate for his assists would be about 30 extra points he had his hand in during this game. That would make it to be 81 points that he contributed in some way to the game. The cavs scored 132 points tonight, you do the math on exactly how much of the offense was attributed to Lebron James, its a big number.
Nobody else in the league does this. Nobody else in the league has the affect on a game the way Lebron does. And honestly, if you wanna start naming people who would come after Lebron, Kobe does NOT start that list.
On a closing note, LeBron’s D is getting to be disgusting as well. The clutch steal at the end of the game is only the highlight of what was a very good defensive performance by James. All you Kobe fans should love to hear that.
@You’re Stupid,
I guess not (unless 3 additional comments since you said that is “done”). Guess you just couldn’t resist, eh? That’s alright. Though I must say, for someone who’s tired of arguing, you sure are persistent. I’m not complaining though, it’s all good.
However, since you’ve commented FIVE times on this article alone since my last response, I’m just going to respond to all three at once. Nevermind. Too much for one response. I’ll handle the others later. This is only in response to one of your comments.
I hope you won’t accuse me of being too thorough again, since I really can’t help the lengthy response necessary to address your long-winded rants.
Man, that is just not true. I mean, are your reading skills really that bad? I’m getting so tired of quoting myself just because you apparently can’t read it the first time. Here’s what I actually said (pay close attention to bold emphasis):
So, it’s spinning it to make a correct observation about LeBron’s shooting? Since you like to do that with Kobe, pulling out isolated incidents where Kobe shoots poorly, I suppose that would make you a very experienced Spin Doctor.
But of course, you missed the part where I specifically said that it’s okay, it didn’t matter, and it doesn’t detract from the significance of his 4th quarter performance — which, by the way, was the majority of the paragraph. I spent three times as much time on that as I did on LeBron’s poor 4th quarter shooting.
But it’s actually you that missed the point, which was that the poor shooting would be precisely what you would be focusing on had this been Kobe. And yet it is clearly not what I focused on. So perhaps I should point out that you actually have made my point for me — now try to take your own point to heart.
Such as in the recent Lakers game against Seattle, for which you criticize Kobe in a later comment — all while missing his incredible performance at the end of regulation and throughout OT to win the game (which I’ll touch on more later).
The point, quite simply, was that you would have pointed out the 0-6 4th quarter had it been Kobe. Therefore, any if you valued consistency and wanted to avoid hypocrisy, you would also mention it when it’s LeBron. Clearly, you don’t.
That was actually the point. The difference between you and me? You absolutely refuse to acknowledge anything good Kobe does, preferring to look the other way and claim that he never does what LeBron does, even while it’s happening under your nose.
On the other hand, I give credit where it is due. Such as when I agreed with everything you said about LeBron’s huge 4th quarter impact:
That’s what I wrote. And given my propensity for remembering what I, myself, wrote, I would think you’d try to spend a little more time reading before mis-quoting me back to myself.
Let’s move on:
Simply not true. Bash? I haven’t bashed anyone (except perhaps Tracy McGrady). In fact, I have said very little negative about LeBron since the original three-part article. Meanwhile, you’ve launched an entire campaign against Kobe, based largely on subjective, unilatteral, and unsubstantiated blanket statements and generalizations. Who’s doing the bashing here?
As for me praising LeBron to make myself look good… what you’re doing here is called Projection. You’re projecting your own penchant towards deception, devious intent, and slander on me. As I stated above, I have not “bashed” LeBron James. In fact, at every opportunity, I have attempted to keep what little criticism I have directed at him in perspective — reminding the reader that while he comes in secondary to Kobe in several areas, he is still a ridiculously amazing player, head and shoulders above the rest, etc. I have also continually reiterated the fact that he is only 23, and is far ahead of the curve.
If you consider stating that he’s still not better than Kobe in certain areas, and then backing those assertions up with evidence and examples, to be “bashing,” then that’s your right. But if that’s the case, then no person can ever hold an intelligent conversation attempting to compare one player to another, as it would undeniably be bashing. In that case, then this discussion is “bashing” by its very nature, and you are as guilty as I am for being a part of it.
But the truth is that I haven’t bashed anyone. You’re the one who’s favorite practice is to fling unsubstantiated, harshly negative, and easily disproven blanket criticisms and dismissals in Kobe’s direction.
So let me try one more time — in all futility, I’m sure — to make this clear: I love LeBron James. I think he is awesome. I think he is the future of the NBA. I think his potential is limitless. I marvel just watching him. He impresses me more and more every day. All I have said is that he is not YET better than Kobe in a number of specific areas. And that’s true. And it’s really not a criticism, since he’s only 23 and, in all likelihood, will get there sooner or later. Probably a lot sooner than later.
How can I be more clear? This is like comparing Chris Paul or Deron Williams to Jason Kidd or Steve Nash. It’s not a knock on them to say that they have all the potential to surpass their predecessors, and are even likely to do so, but haven’t yet. They’re young! Of course they haven’t yet!
So how can I be more clear? How much more praise do I have to heap upon LeBron before you understand that I’m not bashing him, and that when I say I think he’s amazing I’m not throwing up a smokescreen?
That’s a rhetorical question, don’t bother. Obviously there’s nothing I could say. And hey… who cares? Not me.
You know, this one is actually my fault. It would seem that I haven’t communicated the overall purpose of this site very well. So here goes:
The purpose of this website is not to compare Kobe Bryant to LeBron James. The purpose of this website is to formulate coherent, rational arguments to counter the multitude of irrational criticisms of Kobe Bryant that abound both on the internet and in discussions on the NBA. This includes a great number of various criticisms: some criticizing particular elements of Kobe’s game (i.e., “Kobe is a ball hog”), others comparing him to or pitting him against other players (i.e., “Kobe rode Shaq’s coattails to 3 championships”). In time, I intend to address as many of these as I can get to. The first of these was a specific response to certain portions of an ESPN article comparing Kobe and LeBron (Note: Not a general, overall comparison of the two players). This was mainly because of the timing — the article came out right as I was bringing the site online.
Does that clear things up a little? So, no, the website was not made in response to Abbott’s comments in the ESPN article. It was in development before that article came out, and was finally coming online around that time.
Also, you should read the article. It’s not a Henry Abbott article. It’s a Roundtable article including seven different ESPN analysts, and it addresses several different topics separately. Not trying to nitpick, but you do seem to have this trouble with reading (and in particular, with writing before you read — similar to leaping before you jump), which needs to be addressed.
Of course you can derive my personal feelings. But this isn’t about my personal feelings. The website is about my personal feelings, thoughts, perspective, etc. The articles were a response to specific points in a specific article. So while my opinion may be very clear — that Kobe is still better than LeBron — it has no bearing on the article. While I could write an overall comparison of the two players, that is not what I have done. So, the question is, are you responding to the article, or to your general perception of me as a Kobe fan? And the problem is that you’re equating the intent of the articles with the overall purpose of the website.
Having clarified that this site is not a “LeBron vs. Kobe” site, and that it was not created in response to the ESPN article, should also explain why the website URL is not “KobeIsProbablySlightlyBetterThanLebronButIStillLoveLebron.com” or any of the other alternatives you proposed. The site is about Kobe. The comparison to LeBron was originally made by ESPN, not by me, but it was a timely place to start.
That does not change the fact that what I actually wrote was in response to specific points, and was in no way an overall comparison of the two.
Now, you can go ahead and infer that I think Kobe is better than LeBron — which you have, and I do — and you can respond to that. However, in doing so, you’re actually responding to something I have not said. And that’s neither here nor there; it’s off topic. You can have fun with that, but since that wasn’t my original purpose, I’m not going to go there in the follow-up.
In a sense, since I never compared the two overall, you’re responding to nothing.
By the way, I’m not trying to gain Kobe any respect back. He doesn’t need that from me. He’s fine. I’m simply trying to represent the other side of the discussion, since the “haters” tend to be some of the squeakiest wheels I’ve ever heard.
That’s cute. It’s almost like poetry. Or floetry?
Actually, I didn’t set it up that way. ESPN did. The title of their article was Roundtable: Who’s better — Kobe or LeBron?
Now, I suppose I could have titled my articles something like, Who’s better — Kobe or LeBron: A response to specific points in an ESPN Roundtable article: Part I (and parts II and III) — but that’s a little wordy for my liking. And since “Who’s better — Kobe or LeBron” and “Kobe vs. LeBron” are essentially equivalent, I went with the latter, more succinct version.
But even still… to assume from the title alone that I am making a general, overall comparison of Kobe and LeBron is unwise, especially considering the fact that I made the point, over and over, that I was responding to specific points from ESPN’s roundtable article, and that I didn’t really ever deviate from those points. Furthermore, the vast majority of my criticism is directed not towards LeBron (which would make sense if this were an overall comparison of the two players), but towards Henry Abbott. And that is characteristic of an article that is responding to points made by Abbott, not an article comparing two players.
As you even pointed, “Kobe vs. LeBron” could mean several things. It could mean a game of one-on-one. It could mean which is better overall? It could be more specific, relating to which is a better shooter, or which is a better passer. Or, for that matter, it could be which is a better swimmer! For you to assume from the title alone that it’s an overall comparison of the two players’ basketball abilities is putting words in my mouth, and it’s assinine — especially considering the actual content of the article doesn’t bear out your premature conclusion.
I think that takes care of that. There’s nothing in the word “versus” that automatically implies a comparison of two players overall basketball abilities and skill sets. If it were, then “George W. Bush vs. John Kerry” in 2004 would have led to a discussion of the passing, shooting, defensive, and free throw abilities of two silly old men.
I fail to see how a methodical, logical, and rational point-by-point argument is twisting anything. But I do agree that arguing with me is “near pointless” — you’re not up to the task.
And yet you continue.
Now that is a perfect example of twisting! Let me show you how it works.
Two years ago, Kobe averaged over 35 points, taking 7 more shots than he currently is. The critics (such as yourself) said, “He’s shooting too much, he needs to share the ball, get his teammates involved.” Two years later, now that he finally has some worthy teammates (LeBron fans should know a thing or two about sorry teammates, right?), he is actually doing just that. What do the critics say? “Obviously they’re better the less he does!”
That’s twisting the facts (and my words) if I’ve ever seen it.
Let me enlighten you. The following is from a graphic posted recently during SportsCenter:
I think that speaks pretty well for itself. But just in case, let me break it down. In a nutshell, it means that Kobe’s supporting cast has gotten better. A lot better. It means that in the past, Kobe needed to score a lot more than he does this year.
Interestingly enough, this stronger Lakers team surrounding Kobe, and his lessened need to score, just happens to coincides with significantly decreased scoring and fewer shot attempts overall this year. You want to know what this means?
It means that Kobe has always done what his team needed him to do to win.
In the past, that was score. A lot. And Kobe did that. He carried the team on his back. And the numbers show that when he didn’t do that, the Lakers tended to lose. Now, what he needs to do is score less, distribute, get his teammates involved. And, as evidenced by his decreased shooting and scoring, he’s doing just that. Clearly, his offensive talents have always been directed towards maximizing the team’s potential and helping them win.
And you try to spin this as “his team is better the less he does”? Talk about twisting the facts.
I’ll address this more completely later (which is another way of saying, “I’m not going to get into this very much” — just in case you felt like turning this into a “makes his teammates better” discussion), but I’ll just say this for now:
Look at the above graph, which clearly shows Kobe’s teammates getting better. Look at his teammates individually, and you will see a constant trend towards improvement. Look at his effect on Team USA, where the media, the coaches, and even the players ALL stated that Kobe’s work ethic, intensity, and defensive focus elevated the play of everyone around him (and these are the superstars, who shouldn’t need Kobe to elevate their game!). Look at the fact that Kobe has been the assist leader on the Lakers all but one, maybe two, of his twelve years with the Lakers (assist leader = distributor / facilitator). Look at what Kobe did against the Suns in the 2006 playoffs, where nearly defeating them with a team that should not have stood a chance against them — how many of those guys were performing way above their level? Watch those games, it was Kobe that made that happen.
You keep harping on public misconceptions that everyone just keeps repeating. This is one of those. Haters have labeled Kobe with the “doesn’t make his teammates better” label, and everyone has just decided to accept it, and not bother to revisit it ever again (or even examine it in the first place). But this is a misconception repeated by people who don’t watch him play. How silly.
At the very best, the “makes his teammates better” label is completely subjective. There are things you can look at — such as teammates performing above their level, teammates improving, the team over-performing, and how a player measures up as a distributor. Kobe passes all of those tests with flying colors. Beyond that, there’s the subjective. Since it’s painfully obvious that you rarely watch Kobe play, and when you do it’s with a heavy bias, I’ll simply inform you that anyone who watches Kobe play regularly, and has over the past several years, knows that he absolutely makes his teammates better.
There you go with your unilateral, unsubstantiated, completely subjective, and heavily biased blanket statements again. Well, since you say so… umm, no. But it’s just so ridiculous, I’m not even going to be bothered with it (anymore than I already have, repeatedly). How laughable.
Congratulations. He wins in stats. You know who else probably would? Oscar Robertson. Wilt Chamberlain. Bill Russell. None of them, however, are considered the best ever (and somehow, I get the sense you consider LeBron AT LEAST the second best ever, behind Jordan, and feel that he will eventually surpass Jordan).
So LeBron leads in John Hollinger’s statistical model (for which several of the values he assigns to various stats are arbitrary and questionable). Well, since John Hollinger is God and knows all… sorry, no.
Funny how on the one hand you like to go beyond the stats, with statements like “he impacts the game in so many ways,” trying to reference the intangible. And yet, when it suits you, you try and boil it all down to statistics. The problem is that neither of those two things tells the full story. So John Hollinger’s model favors LeBron James in a statistical discussion. Pat yourself on the back.
Let’s go backwards-ish. Stop with the Shaq. It’s just not a good argument. As I already mentioned, Penny Hardaway also didn’t win with Shaq. And when Dwyane Wade did, Wade, not Shaq, got the credit. Meanwhile, where was Shaq at the end of virtually every single close game in the Lakers’ 3-year run? On the bench, either fouled out or because he couldn’t be trusted to hit his free throws and was a liability in close games. And anyone knows that every championship run is going to have some close games along the way.
Also, I find it convenient that you cite Shaq as an excuse for Kobe winning three titles, but you don’t recognize what everyone recognizes about LeBron’s trip to the Finals last year — that it was ridiculously easy because the East was so dismally bad. Typical of your selective (read: hypocritical) reasoning.
Leadership? He’s a good leader. You’re giving him a little much by calling him a “great” leader — even those in the ESPN Roundtable article who gave him the nod over Kobe (which was most of them) agreed that his leadership still needs work. I’m sure it will only get better, though.
Defense? Yes, it is getting good. It is much better than it was. It will continue to improve. And as it does, it will approach Kobe’s level. The fact that it’s not there yet is not a knock against him; in fact, the fact that it is closing the gap so quickly is very impressive.
Killer? Definitely showing his moments. I want to see him do that against the best in the West, under the pressure of the Finals.
Makes his teammates better? Yes. As I’ve mentioned, Kobe is better at that than most give him credit for. But it is also true that LeBron does very, very well in this area.
How about one more? Experience. As in, consistency. Not that he’s been inconsistent — he just hasn’t been consistent long enough.
Let me illustrate with a non-basketball example. When I was learning to drive, I noticed that my dad did things he didn’t allow me to do. His reason? I’ve been driving much, much longer, with an excellent track record. Now, I’d been driving for several years without a single accident, and considering the astronomically high percentage of young drivers that have an accident in their first couple of years, that was already very, very impressive. I was a very, very good driver. However, just because I hadn’t had an accident yet didn’t mean I wouldn’t, and just because I had been a good driver and able to handle all situations to date didn’t mean that I was as good as my dad was in all situations, or that I had experienced all situations. It wasn’t a knock on me. It was simply that I hadn’t had the opportunity yet to gain the experience necessary, and to experience all of the different types of situations, that would make me a good driver. And until it was deemed that I had enough experiences in enough different types of situations, my dad wasn’t ready to sign off on me being a good driver (certainly not as good as him), and he didn’t want me doing certain things that a more experienced driver could.
It’s the same with LeBron. His accomplishments to date are amazing, and they show every indication that he will one day — perhaps very soon — hold that unquestioned position a-top the NBA. In fact, it’s very conceivable that he could be the best ever before he’s done. But he hasn’t had the opportunity yet to prove himself in every situation. Say what you want about Shaq, he couldn’t have won those three titles without Kobe, either. And Kobe delivered in those situations, and big. He played under the pressure of the Finals, and he delivered — three times. LeBron has only been there once, and it was less than impressive. You simply can’t use the Detroit series as an argument for him without also looking at the San Antonio series to recognize the ways in which he still has to improve.
So the ultimate question: When will I give LeBron the nod? When his defense is not just good, but great. When his killer instinct is not just something that is showing up more and more, but something that is taken for granted, and that is used as a measuring stick for the rest of the NBA. When he has proven to be clutch consistently, multiple times in all situations — and that doesn’t just mean huge performances in the 4th quarter, but also hitting the game winning shots. (Yes, he has done that; but Kobe has been clutch countless times in the regular season, many times in the playoffs, and many times in the Finals. It’s only fair that LeBron do the same before he be considered at the same level in that category.) And yes. When he wins championships. At least one. Preferably more than one.
And I’ll also admit this: I fully expect him to get there. Now, in that time, it’s possible that Kobe forces the whole world to recognize what those who watch him constantly already know — that he his a very good leader, a team player, a facilitator, and makes those around him better. It’s possible that the Lakers win one more more championships between now and then. If that happens, he may still get the nod (though it will be very, very close, if LeBron also does all of the things I want to see out of him). But if LeBron does all of the above, and Kobe does none of the above, then I will recognize LeBron as being better, overall, than Kobe.
And let me also say four things, all of which I think are very fair statements:
1. I think Kobe is better in terms of pure skill than Michael Jordan was. I do NOT think he has reached the level of “greatness” that Jordan did.
2. I do not think that LeBron is better in terms of pure skill than MJ was. But I do believe that he could reach that point. In fact, I’d be so bold as to say that he probably will.
3. I think that Kobe has the potential to be greater than Jordan by the time he retires. Whether it plays out that way, whether he can make it happen, only time will tell.
4. I also think that LeBron has the potential to be greater than both Kobe and MJ by the time he retires. Again, only time will tell how that actually plays out.
Let me make clear that I’m not calling Kobe the Greatest Of All Time, but only saying he has the potential. And the same applies to LeBron. And when I say “better,” that means pure skill, not how it translates to greatness on the court. I also am not guaranteeing anything. In the end, perhaps neither one of them surpasses MJ. Perhaps one or both of them do. To deny that either of them has the potential, however, is unreasonable.
That said… If that doesn’t say how highly I esteem LeBron James, I don’t know what does.
Yes, I do. And no, Detroit was not the powerhouse you make them out to be. In fact, Detroit is widely recognized to have played extremely well in the first half of the season last year, and then faltered in the second half. And if they were really that good, they would have at least given the Cavs a run for their money. I mean, if the Spurs swept the Cavs, and the Cavs swept the Pistons, what does that say about the Pistons?
I also don’t think the Cavs could have beat the Suns last year. The Suns gave the Spurs much more of a run for their money. And while the Lakers only took one game against the Suns last year, they took 3 against them the previous year — and that year’s Lakers team was even worse than last years.
For example: This year, the Lakers’ bench is one of the best, averaging in the mid- to high-30s per game. Last year, mid- to low-20s. The year before? Mid- to low-teens. That’s abysmal! That’s also the year the Lakers almost beat the Suns.
I think that last year, Kobe could have challenged for a championship on any team on the East — not guaranteed, but a good shot. Now, with Boston so strong, they would be the only obstacle and would reduce his chances. But, hell, you could put Kobe on the Knicks and they’d be considered title contenders.
It doesn’t make LeBron’s accomplishments any less significant. I think he’s the only other person that could have done it with that team. Not even Tim Duncan could have pulled that off. I believe Kobe could have. And obviously LeBron. No one else. But to say he couldn’t have done that is to ignore some of the amazing things that he has done against even better teams in the past couple years. The difference? The Western Conference is stacked.
Let me put it to you this way: Do you think that the Cavs would have made it to the Finals had they switched spots with the Lakers at the start of the playoffs? Either of the past two years? No, they wouldn’t have. Because as great as LeBron is, to win against the powerhouse teams in the West requires more help. LeBron hasn’t had that. Kobe hasn’t had that, until this year (although, we’ll see what happens now that Bynum is down).
Let me put it yet another way. Many considered the Suns to have had a legitimate chance against the Spurs. Many, in fact, still believe that a combination of the suspensions and a lot of terrible officiating is what gave the Spurs the victory, and had that not been the case, the Suns not only could have won, but would have. I honestly don’t know whether I agree with that or not. But it’s a widely held opinion, and not just by Suns fans. If that is the case, and the Suns were indeed the better team, do you think the Cavs could have beaten the Suns, when they couldn’t beat the Spurs? No. Well, had they been in the Lakers’ position, that would have been the first round, and LeBron would have been ousted and never made it to the Finals. We wouldn’t be having this conversation.
See? But if the Cavs had been in the West, playing the Suns in the first round, their inevitable loss wouldn’t have detracted from LeBron’s greatness. It would have been because the rest of the Cavs suck, and you need a strong team to win against such strong, powerhouse teams in the West as the Spurs and Suns. LeBron would have needed help.
In the same way, it shouldn’t detract from Kobe’s greatness that he hasn’t been able to get past the Suns with a team that sucks. I mean… The Smush Parker Experiment? Kwame “Stonehands” Brown? Those were the Lakers’ starting PG and C. This year, if Bynum is back to where he was pre-injury and Fish and Farmar are still producing, and if the bench is still performing well, then you can start talking. But the last three years are a result of a horrible, horrible supporting cast around Kobe — something LeBron knows a lot about.
Had LeBron been in the West in the Lakers’ stead, he would have lost in the first round, as well. And it wouldn’t have been his fault. It would have been because he had a horrible team. The same is true for Kobe. Even players as amazing as these two can’t do it all by themselves. Not in the West. Not against the Suns or the Spurs.
@You’re Stupid,
From one of your shorter comments:
I mentioned this in my last post. Here’s what I said:
At the time, I was talking about your admiration for LeBron’s play in a game in which he shot 0-6 in the 4th quarter, but affected the game in other ways. And this is what I’m talking about. You overlook poor shooting by LeBron one night, then harp on Kobe for it the next.
It wasn’t Kobe’s best shooting night. But this was the second night of a back-to-back, on the night after the Lakers had lost their up-and-coming center — a player who had completely changed the game for everyone on the team. Kobe sensed that the team was deflated and discouraged, so he carried them.
Did he take a lot of shots? Yes. But would you rather that Luke Walton and Lamar Odom, who were a combined 4-21, keep shooting at a rate of 19%, or that Kobe Bryant keep shooting at almost 48% — a very respectable number.
Was it his best shooting night? No. Is that what’s important? No.
What’s important was the key baskets he scored at the end of regulation to even ensure that there was an overtime. What’s important is the 6 points he scored on 3-5 shooting — there’s a good percentage for you — in overtime. What’s important is that he scored ALL of the Lakers’ overtime points, except for two Kwame Brown free throws (and considering he makes about 38% of his free throws, any that he hits are just bonus and completely unexpected).
And don’t say he shot too much. He scored the Lakers only points aside from Kwame’s free throws not because he took all the shots, but because everyone else — including Derek Fisher, Lamar Odom, and Luke Walton — all missed every shot they put up.
What’s important is how, after a couple of misses by his Lakers teammates put the Lakers down 4 with time winding down, Kobe hit a jumper, got a steal on the next possession, and made a very difficult transition layup to tie the game. And then, with the clock running down, and even though everyone in the arena knew what was going to happen, no one could stop him from doing what he does — with 4.3 seconds left, he jab-stepped, elevated, and drilled the jumper to win the game.
You’re very fond of recognizing the ways that LeBron comes through, whether it’s scoring or otherwise, and even on nights when he shoots poorly. Double standards aren’t allowed: this was one such performance. Kobe carried his team.
Was LeBron more efficient the next night? Absolutely! But Kobe has done that dozens of times. If you look at his shooting percentage when he scores over 50 points, you’ll find that the 47.7% he shot last night — which, as I mentioned, is a respectable number — is low for him. For example, when he scored at least 50 points in 4 straight games, he averaged 54.3% shooting. Not only that, but he averaged 51.5% on 3-pointers! He also shot 93.3% from the free throw line. In two of those games, he had 3 steals. In two of them, he had 7 rebounds (5 and 6 in the other two).
Each one of those games was comparable to LeBron’s game from last night. Kobe did it 4 times in a row! He did it even when teams were expecting him to do it, and planning their defensive strategy around it! To steal one of your favorite lines… LeBron has never done that!
You say Kobe doesn’t do it consistently — tell that to the teams that tried to stop him those four nights.
You see how far this goes when you decide to compare two players based on isolated incidents? Like Henry Abbott, you’re trying to base an entire argument off of one game — and like I said before, that’s a red flag in any conversation.
By the by… I love how, since it’s LeBron, you’ve decided to start differentiating between “quality” assists and “lesser” assists. I’m sure if it were Kobe, they’d be “excuse me assists,” but conveniently, LeBron’s assists are somehow better than everyone else’s assists. Classic.
Clutch D (on Kobe)
Clutch Jumpers (over Kobe)
Clutch Free Throws (not from Kobe)
Best player in the world. And yes, it’s not even close – it’s LeBron James.
You have just witnessed ONCE AND FOR ALL the dethrowning of Kobe as teh best player in the NBA!!!!!!!!!
CLUTCH SHOT!!!!
CLUTCH FREE THROWS!!!!!
CLUTCH DEFENSE!!!!!!
AND A FREAKING AWESOME PLAY BY BRYANT AT THE END!!!!
LEBRON JAMES IS THE BEST IN THE NBA!!!!!!!!!!!
WOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
@Tom,
No argument about LeBron’s performance.
Though you do conveniently mention Kobe’s 2 missed free throws, while leaving out LeBron’s 2 missed free throws. Twisting the facts as haters always do.
You forgot one, though: Clutch foul calls. Like the phantom foul call against Lamar Odom near the end of the game. And the multiple foul calls that Kobe should have gotten — and didn’t — on that blown inbounds pass.
Fouled on the shot. Fouled after the rebound. Fouled as he went to the ground. No call.
It’s a lot easier to be clutch when you’re getting all the calls. Just ask D-Wade.
Great player, unquestionably. Second best in the world, unquestionably. One cheap game handed to him by the refs doesn’t make him the best in the world.
Apologist – No no no no no. By mentioning that Clutch Free Throws were in fact hit, I merely pointed out that they were NOT HIT by Mr. Clutch, Kobe Bryant. I’m not saying LeBron is a better FT shooter, or a more Clutch FT shooter. I’m merely stating that Clutch Free Throws were hit, and not by Kobe.
Ok now I just went back and read the rest of your post. Why am I wasting my time here. You are arguing that the refs handed THE CAVS??!?!?! this game? All I needed to know.
FT Disparagy: 37 Lakers, 23 Cavaliers
Z fouls out on the 2nd tip in attempt after not getting called for a foul on the first. Derek Fisher sets bear hug screens on LeBron to free up Kobe, 5 late whistle’s FOR the lakers in the 4th quarter alone. Lakers in the bonus with 7 minutes left in the 4th. Clock left about 2 extra seconds for the Lakers and then after the inbounds to LeBron where he sat in the backcourt waiting for Kobe to run up and grab him, and only 1 second falls off.
Dude – I actually applauded your fandom and efforts, but now you’ve just shown that you are a homer and don’t take basketball objectively AT ALL if your argument is that the Refs handed THE CAVS this game. I mean – seriously, that’s unbelievable dude.
@You’re Stupid,
Glad to see you’re not hiding your name and pretending to be someone else anymore.
But I don’t think one cheap win thanks to the refs results in the dethroning of anyone or anything. Keep dreaming.
Clutch shot, yes.
Clutch defense, yes.
Clutch free throws, yes.
And an awesome play by Bryant at the end? I’m assuming you’re referring to the one on which Bryant was fouled at least 3 separate times, and never got the call.
What does that do to your “Kobe Bryant has to get foul calls to bail him out” theory? Truth is, he doesn’t get foul calls nearly as easily as LeBron — who, by the way, gets the second most foul calls in the league, second only to the most dominant center in the NBA, Dwight Howard.
Who’s really the one getting bail-out foul calls?
But you forgot a couple.
Clutch foul calls? Yes.
Clutch refs? Most of all.
If you’re the webmaster why don’t you check my IP or something. I’m not Stupid and I don’t have theories.
But whatever man. I enjoyed watching you and other people argue in here. But it’s over. You have nothing objective to contribute.
The Cavs are a no excuse team, and I am a no excuse fan.
Ah, only in true Kobe lover fashion would you pull the ref card.. but in THIS game? C’mon my man. If any team has a right to complain about the refs.. its the Cavs. The clock management at the end of the game was a JOKE. And phantom foul calls on lebron? Are you serious? Lebron being so strong actually hurts him because he gets fouled WAY more than they call and he doesnt get the call because he absorbs the contact so well. Kobe got plenty of Dwade foul calls in this game.. so if you’re complaining about specific calls down the stretch.. just remember some of the ones earlier in the game and it will even out for you.
And im not changing my name.. surprising as it is there is more than one person who thinks you’re a clueness retard.
@Tom,
Fair enough on the free throws. Yes, they were clutch. It just seems that the only reason you would say “and not by Kobe” would be that Kobe missed two down the stretch. So I felt it necessary to point out that LeBron did the same thing, shortly after. But I won’t argue that he hit two very key free throws — and pretty effortlessly — when it mattered. Very clutch.
I’m not arguing that the clock snafu was bad news, and it probably should have had at least an extra second off of it. I agreed with the commentators, most of all, that replay should be allowed for clock issues. It’s ridiculous that it’s not.
The additional clock issues you speak of, when LeBron stood in the backcourt, are in your imagination.
Free throw disparity? So, should I make the point that in the first half, when the Lakers only took 7 free throws (and the Cavs quite a bit more), the Cavs were getting the benefit of officiating? Should we attribute their 9 point lead at half time to free throw disparity?
I’ve very clearly agreed with you that the clock issue was absurd, and that it’s ridiculous that they don’t allow instant replay for that. So now, let’s hear you deny that Kobe was fouled multiple times on that second-to-last possession? Because if you can deny that, you’re just as much a homer as you accuse me of being.
Also, it’s worth pointing out that despite the clock issues — which, to say it again, were ridiculous and wrong — that snafu didn’t help the Lakers, as they weren’t able to get a shot off in the time they had. Not that it’s any less of an issue, but it didn’t help the Lakers.
The missed foul calls on Kobe, however, very much did affect the outcome of the game. It did help the Cavs.
@You’re Stupid,
See my response to Tom above your comment. I’m not wasting time on you.
Clock management was bad, indeed. The Lakers also didn’t benefit from it whatsoever.
The non-called fouls on Kobe were also bad, and there were several of them. And the Cavs did benefit from them, because Kobe didn’t go to the line with a chance to win the game.
And nobody absorbs more contact without getting foul calls than Kobe does. Nobody.
With regards to your name changes — you may not realize that I can see the IP Addresses on comments. So when I see someone using another name, but your IP Address — which can’t be duplicated — it’s pretty obvious you’re changing your name. Why is that? Trying to get a fresh start, because I have defeated nearly every argument “You’re Stupid” tried to use?
So like, in other words, what you are really trying to say, is that, Lebron is the MVP?
That’s what i thought.
@You’re Stupid,
I always know I can count on you to misread and misrepresent me.
I didn’t misread anything.. i’m just pointing out that he is.
@You’re Stupid,
You said that I was saying as much. Only the severely reading challenged could pull that off.
Also, I love that you’re campaigning for LeBron for MVP, even though his team is on track to win about 45 games this year — in a weak Eastern Conference. Reminds me of all the Lakers and Kobe fans saying Kobe should be MVP for the past several years.
Fact is, his team has to win 50+ games for him to get the MVP. Kobe’s Lakers are on track for that. LeBron’s Cavs are not. If, at some point down the road, they win enough to be on track for 50+ games, then he will be a legitimate candidate (but as long as the Lakers do the same, Kobe will be as well).
Until then, you get the same response that Lakers fans have gotten over the past few years — his team needs to win more, first.
If my MVP candidate didnt miss 6 games, we would be on pace for your win totals.. plus we have won like 12 of th last 15 now that hes back
lol i love that you’re so quick to respond right now… you must really feel like Kobe needs some defending today.. couldnt imagine why.
usually it takes you like 4 days to respond to anything..
aww
@You’re Stupid,
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Meanwhile, the true MVP of the season, thus far, has played through flu, wrist injury (on his shooting arm), shoulder injury, ankle injury, groin injury, and respiratory infection.
All while you’re MVP candidate sat out with an injury to his non-shooting hand.
And blame injuries all you want — had 3 out of 5 starters not been injured for dozens of games each last seasons — with the only remaining starter besides Kobe being the laughable Smush Parker Experiment — the Lakers would easily have won 50 games last year.
So, if the woulda, coulda, shouldas of injuries actually mattered to anyone, Kobe should have gotten the MVP last year.
Sorry. 50+ games, and nobody forgives injuries.
@You’re Stupid,
Actually, I have a life. And, in particular, a wife. It just so happens that she is visiting the family for several days, giving me more time than I usually have to give you reading lessons and fill in the facts that you try to leave out.
@You’re Stupid,
By the way, Kobe both out-rebounded and out-assisted LeBron today. Aren’t those two things, like, the very crux of your argument?
Not only that, but Kobe has had double-digit rebounds in each of the last several games (with Andrew Bynum out), and is leading the team in rebounds during Bynum’s absence.
Hmmm…
@You’re Stupid,
One more thing:
Similarly, I love that you’re still around, trolling my comments, even though you said you were done with this… what, 15 comments ago?
Perhaps you’re actually the one that feels that LeBron needs some defending?
Nah, i just saw an amazing game today and was just curious as to what excuses you would have.
As far as your Kobe had more rebounds/assists comment.. yea, i TOO noticed Kobe trying to be Lebron James today. Only thing is, he doesn’t do it as well. Of course, im sure you’re aware of the season stats.. so i dont know what exactly you’re trying to say by bringing up that he had more today. Lebron still shot a higher percentage today, and scored more points with 9 rebounds and 4 assists being nothing to scoff at. And who played the better defense today? And im not talkin bout steals and blocks. Im talkin bout on the ball, in your face defense. That would be Lebron James.
So lets see, you’re BIGGEST arguing points for Kobe are Clutchness, Defense, and Killer instinct. Um yea, you got to see first hand today what ive been saying all year about lebron. HE DOES/IS ALL THOSE THINGS. im just glad lakerland finally got to see it.
@You’re Stupid,
Similarly, I saw a great game today and was just curious as to whether you would attempt to base everything on the outcome of one game. You never disappoint.
That’s funny. So, LeBron out-performs him in any category, and he’s superior. Kobe out-performs LeBron in those same categories, and he’s trying to be LeBron. You’re a silly man.
I guess that means LeBron, by leading the league in scoring, is trying to be Kobe. Oh, how many shots did he take today?
That’s a funny thing to say, coming from a person who lives to base an entire value judgment, a comparison of two players, on one game.
You declared that this one game was the game where LeBron dethroned Kobe. I then pointed out that in this same game, Kobe out-rebounded and out-assisted LeBron. If you’re going to base everything on one game, you have to be consistent. So, either this is just one game, and fairly insignificant, or this game means EVERYTHING — in which case, consistency would demand that you concede the rebounding and assisting to Kobe.
Ridiculous, isn’t it? Well, that’s how ridiculous it is to try to claim that LeBron “dethroned” Kobe in this one game. Ridiculous.
Actually, LeBron shot 50%. Kobe essentially also shot 50%. And, had it not been for several blatant non-calls, their percentage would have been identical — with Kobe scoring almost as much as LeBron on far, far fewer shots.
Also, funny stuff, because I’m pretty sure you scoff at Kobe’s team-leading 5+ assists per game on a regular basis. So, when LeBron puts up 4 assists, it’s nothing to scoff at? But not when Kobe does it? That’s convenient.
I won’t deny James’ defense. It was also much talked about. I don’t think I’d go so far as to say he played better defense. Kobe’s was very good as well. But I won’t deny that LBJ’s defense, particularly at the end of the game, was formidable.
You forget free throw shooting (yes, he hit some big ones today, but the season averages — something you pointed out just moments ago — are still pretty low for a player of LBJ’s caliber), his jump shot (his 3-point percentage is anything but impressive), and creativity (a solid jump shot would help with creativity — Kobe can go strong to the hole as well, as we saw in this game, but the difference is that when that’s taken away, he has a killer jumper — consistently).
Man, you’re not paying attention. I’ve conceded many of these things. I recognize how great he is. Hell, I even said I think he has the potential to surpass Kobe — one day. And not only Kobe, but even MJ!! So don’t act like I don’t give him credit.
However, we have yet to see him do it on the greatest stage in basketball. For all that he has done, it doesn’t change the fact that he was forgettable in the Finals last year.
Now, I have no doubt whatsoever that that will not be the case for long. I’m quite certain that he will return to the Finals, and will be absolutely spectacular. If not this year, then the next, or the next. It will happen. It just hasn’t happened yet.
And until that does, one fairly inconsequential regular season game isn’t going to dethrone the player for whom that has happened, time and time again.
LBJ had an amazing game. It was incredible to watch. If anything, you’re the one showing yourself to be a hater with plenty of excuses up his sleeve, because Kobe played an equally amazing game, but you fail to recognize it!
At least I give credit where it’s due.
[...] Had this been LeBron James, fans of The (prematurely anointed) King would be on this blog proclaiming his greatness, claiming that in a single game he had dethroned Kobe. [...]
@Tom,
Actually, I think you may have thought I was responding to you, when I was actually responding to “You’re Stupid” (who commented right after you). I know you’re not him — but hopefully that was made clear later on, when I also responded to you.
Hey, I respect your being a no-excuses fan. Unfortunately, you seem to be alone in this, as so many Cavs / LeBron fans are using the injury excuse to account for the Cavs record in the MVP debate.
I try to be a no-excuses fan as well. And certainly, that questionable possession was not an excuse for the Lakers losing this game — they never should have let it get that close. But the game wasn’t in question — the “status” — and more specifically, the “clutchness” — of LeBron and Kobe was. And in that situation, I think it’s fair to recognize when a player would clearly have made an easy shot, and was prevented from it by more than one foul, which was never called.
Here’s what I’m talking about: Click here and go to the 1:42 mark. Now, even if there’s no foul on the Hughes block (which is questionable at best), there’s an obvious foul by Hughes after the rebound, and a possible foul on Daniel Gibson as Kobe was falling down. And if at least one of those wasn’t a foul, then I’d like to know when they changed the rules to allow a player to knock another player down without being called for a foul.
By the by, click here and go to the 9:05 mark to see the phantom foul LeBron drew against Lamar Odom near the end of the game. Then go to the 9:25 mark and you’ll see that Kobe was also quite clutch in this game — LeBron just got the last real opportunity. Nonetheless, move on up to the 9:40 mark — that’s just an amazing shot. No doubt about that.
Even given that, I’m more than willing to allow that LeBron got the best of Kobe that night — and that he was extremely clutch, in his own right. Mainly, this is a response to those who would try to claim that LeBron has become more clutch than Kobe — all on the basis of that one game.
I hope that makes sense. For your part, you seem a very reasonable guy, and I appreciate your perspective and your refusal to stoop to some of the same lows that your fellow Cavs / LeBron fan “You’re Stupid” has.
good post
[...] said, I launched this website with a three part series addressing certain aspects of the comparison between Bryant and LeBron James. I then [...]
hey annoymous, its true. look it up. i think its TNT during all start break or after one of their game that was on TNT, it was national television. they asked what he thought of jason kidd. he said, "i know management up there knows what theyre doing. and im not there. but i definitely think kidd is someone we should be thinking about"
to You’re Stupid …
wow. yes definitely. you’re right. lebron james is clutch. scoring 24 in the fourth. but wait…i think we forget…you realize kobe has scored 30 in a quarter right? and that little game when he brough the lakers back from being down 17 to the raptors? yeah, he scored 81 that game. -.-
@Anonymous,
I have since had the opportunity to reflect on some of these discussions, and have seen more pertinent information to this discussion. And while I really have no desire to start this discussion with “You’re Stupid” up again, there are a few points that I didn’t make before which are relevant to this discussion:
The end result? Despite the fact that his team requires it of him much, much less than LeBron’s, Kobe is almost as productive as LeBron in the 4th quarter. He is also more efficient. Were his team to need him to perform in the clutch as much as LeBron’s does — meaning, were his 4th quarter usage equal to LeBron’s — it’s pretty clear that Kobe would have higher 4th quarter numbers than LeBron. Which is no surprise, as Kobe has always owned the 4th quarter.
Meanwhile, while LeBron is learning to do things that are old tricks, old news for Kobe, Kobe himself is busy dominating his opponents so completely that there simply isn’t much need for him to perform in the clutch.
[...] my first post in this series, responding to an ESPN rountable article, I discussed Henry Abbott’s response to the second [...]
[...] my first two posts in this series (Click to read: Part I | Part II), I discussed two of Henry Abbott’s responses in an ESPN round table article [...]